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  • Re: Making a Murderer updates

    I think there are two different questions here. The first is whether Zellner has uncovered either new evidence that warrants a new trial, or inappropriate conduct by the prosecution (typically, failure to produce possible exculpatory evidence) to warrant a new trial.

    The second is whether Steven Avery is guilty or not.

    With respect to the first question, I think Zellner has done an admirable job. The issue of "new evidence" is a bit tricky in my mind. I don't know that a lot of the forensic test results she's produced are "new" so much as they just weren't done by either the prosecution or defense in the original trial. Does that constitute ineffective assistance of counsel? Maybe, but I would guess that there are cases out there where courts have told convicted individuals that your failure to conduct an available test at the time of your original trial doesn't mean that we're just going to let you out because you want to do the test now and it's positive for you.

    I think she is on firmer ground with respect to the prosecution not disclosing all the evidence ahead of time (don't hold your breath about any prosecutors going to jail for that), so I wouldn't be surprised if she gets a new trial on that basis alone.

    On Avery's guilt or innocence, I'm still not so sure that she, Avery, and some of you are right.

    We do know Halbach was on his property. We do know her key was found in his house. His blood is in her vehicle, as is hers. The vehicle is on his property. At least some of her bones were found on his property.

    I understand there are theories about the conspiracy to frame Avery, primarily due to the lawsuit from the other imprisonment. But what's troubled me about those conspiracy theories is this. First, they involve a number of people, not just two, or possibly three.

    Second, Zellner thinks there is evidence that the boyfriend was involved. She thinks there is evidence that Tadych and/or Bobby Dassey were involved. And, of course, she thinks the police were involved.

    So is the theory that all or some of these parties somehow coordinated their conspiracy? Did they all independently happen to decide to frame Steven Avery for this crime? I could believe that a single person like Tadych, for example, committed the crime and independently tried to frame Avery without the involvement of all of these other parties. I don't see how a conspiracy of that many disparate and unrelated parties could, on the spur of the moment, carry out such a conspiracy. More importantly, I don't see evidence that one single party, like Tadych, like Hillegas, or like the police department, had access to all the moving parts to carry out the framing.

    That's just what troubles me.
    Last edited by SJHovey; 12-13-2018, 10:57 AM.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

    Comment


    • Re: Making a Murderer updates

      Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
      I think there are two different questions here. The first is whether Zellner has uncovered either new evidence that warrants a new trial, or inappropriate conduct by the prosecution (typically, failure to produce possible exculpatory evidence) to warrant a new trial.

      The second is whether Steven Avery is guilty or not.

      With respect to the first question, I think Zellner has done an admirable job. The issue of "new evidence" is a bit tricky in my mind. I don't know that a lot of the forensic test results she's produced are "new" so much as they just weren't done by either the prosecution or defense in the original trial. Does that constitute ineffective assistance of counsel? Maybe, but I would guess that there are cases out there where courts have told convicted individuals that your failure to conduct an available test at the time of your original trial doesn't mean that we're just going to let you out because you want to do the test now and it's positive for you.

      I think she is on firmer ground with respect to the prosecution not disclosing all the evidence ahead of time (don't hold your breath about any prosecutors going to jail for that), so I wouldn't be surprised if she gets a new trial on that basis alone.

      On Avery's guilt or innocence, I'm still not so sure that she, Avery, and some of you are right.

      We do know Halbach was on his property. We do know her key was found in his house. His blood is in her vehicle, as is hers. The vehicle is on his property. At least some of her bones were found on his property.

      I understand there are theories about the conspiracy to frame Avery, primarily due to the lawsuit from the other imprisonment. But what's troubled me about those conspiracy theories is this. First, they involve a number of people, not just two, or possibly three.

      Second, Zellner thinks there is evidence that the boyfriend was involved. She thinks there is evidence that Tadych and/or Bobby Dassey were involved. And, of course, she thinks the police were involved.

      So is the theory that all or some of these parties somehow coordinated their conspiracy? Did they all independently happened to decide to frame Steven Avery for this crime? I could believe that a single person like Tadych, for example, committed the crime and independently tried to frame Avery without the involvement of all of these other parties. I don't see how a conspiracy of that many disparate and unrelated parties could, on the spur of the moment, carry out such a conspiracy. More importantly, I don't see evidence that one single party, like Tadych, like Hillegas, or like the police department, had access to all the moving parts to carry out the framing.

      That's just what troubles me.
      To me I think its completely plausible that someone like Tadych or Hillegas did something and tried to cover it up knowing that Avery would be an obvious target...obviously this leans towards Tadych because of his knowledge of Avery. The policy side of it seems plausible that it was a tunnel vision to make sure hew as convicted by doing things they normally wouldn't do because they were convinced that Avery was guilty both times and wanted to make sure he didn't get out this time. I honestly don't think that isn't an extremely difficult possibility to accept.
      Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

      Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

      Comment


      • Re: Making a Murderer updates

        I agree with most of what hovey said. I don’t think anyone thinks Avery is a good guy. I don’t know if he’s guilty.

        I think the evidence is clear that a lot of tampering went on.

        Comment


        • Re: Making a Murderer updates

          Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
          I agree with most of what hovey said. I don’t think anyone thinks Avery is a good guy. I don’t know if he’s guilty.

          I think the evidence is clear that a lot of tampering went on.
          Avery is likely not a good guy. I honestly think the more important piece to everything is that Brendan Dassey got screwed...
          Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

          Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
            Avery is likely not a good guy. I honestly think the more important piece to everything is that Brendan Dassey got screwed...
            Must definitely. Poor guy should not be in jail. He got hosed big time
            Fly Eagles Fly!!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
              To me I think its completely plausible that someone like Tadych or Hillegas did something and tried to cover it up knowing that Avery would be an obvious target...obviously this leans towards Tadych because of his knowledge of Avery. The policy side of it seems plausible that it was a tunnel vision to make sure hew as convicted by doing things they normally wouldn't do because they were convinced that Avery was guilty both times and wanted to make sure he didn't get out this time. I honestly don't think that isn't an extremely difficult possibility to accept.
              Agreed. We even had police AFTER dna exonerated Steven going on record in depositions saying they still thought he did it. Meaning 1985.

              The clear fact is we don’t KNOW what happened. Next is evidence tampering and/or withholding.

              There is a very odd relationship between the sheriffs and both Hillegas and Bobby Dassey. That may come out soon. Hillegas called one specific sheriff some 21 times the night of the murder. Bobby was treated with kid gloves with the police lying about his pc AND ignoring the massive amounts of blood in his garage thinking it was all due to deer processing and not potentially his covering a crime scene. EDIT: also ignoring his crimes via watching or downloading child porn. Incredibly vile stuff and incredible dereliction of duty on police to ignore that.

              Tadych’s alibi can be partially disproven with hospital video if they have cameras up. If he didn’t visit his mom etc.

              I agree it’s disconcerting that 3 or more parties would cover for each other but the evidence is bizarre. Tadych got a new house somehow out of this deal. The facts uncovered by ttm are astounding. I’m fairly certain he’s been tipping off Zellner over the past year.

              Also, evidently one officer told Zellner in confidence that Avery is innocent.
              Last edited by solovsfett; 12-13-2018, 11:42 AM.
              Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


              "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

              "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

              Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

              Comment


              • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                Originally posted by solovsfett View Post
                Agreed. We even had police AFTER dna exonerated Steven going on record in depositions saying they still thought he did it. Meaning 1985.

                The clear fact is we don’t KNOW what happened. Next is evidence tampering and/or withholding.

                There is a very odd relationship between the sheriffs and both Hillegas and Bobby Dassey. That may come out soon. Hillegas called one specific sheriff some 21 times the night of the murder. Bobby was treated with kid gloves with the police lying about his pc AND ignoring the massive amounts of blood in his garage thinking it was all due to deer processing and not potentially his covering a crime scene. EDIT: also ignoring his crimes via watching or downloading child porn. Incredibly vile stuff and incredible dereliction of duty on police to ignore that.

                Tadych’s alibi can be partially disproven with hospital video if they have cameras up. If he didn’t visit his mom etc.

                I agree it’s disconcerting that 3 or more parties would cover for each other but the evidence is bizarre. Tadych got a new house somehow out of this deal. The facts uncovered by ttm are astounding. I’m fairly certain he’s been tipping off Zellner over the past year.

                Also, evidently one officer told Zellner in confidence that Avery is innocent.
                I think the key in all of this is that Avery was railroaded...innocent is another question.
                Michigan Tech Legend, Founder of Mitch's Misfits, Co-Founder of Tech Hockey Guide, and Creator/Host of the Chasing MacNaughton Podcast covering MTU Hockey and the WCHA.

                Sports Allegiance: NFL: GB MLB: MIL NHL: MIN CB: UW CF: UW CH: MTU FIFA: USA MLS: MIN EPL: Everton

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
                  I think the key in all of this is that Avery was railroaded...innocent is another question.
                  True. Now we’ll see if the governor and AG will concede on that question or will they stonewall like Walker and Schimel and keep the rav4 and other items out of Zellner’s hands.
                  Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                  "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                  "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                  Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                    Brendon got screwed. I think he is innocent (not just "not guilty").
                    Steve may or not be innocent, but there is a reasonable doubt that he's guilty. So, he's not guilty by definition of law.
                    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                    Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

                    Comment


                    • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                      Steve is a compete POS. Nothing shows beyond a reasonable doubt that he did this, though. That's it.
                      the state of hockey is good

                      Comment


                      • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                        Originally posted by state of hockey View Post
                        Steve is a compete POS. Nothing shows beyond a reasonable doubt that he did this, though. That's it.
                        Pretty much.
                        Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                        Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

                        Comment


                        • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                          https://www.postcrescent.com/story/n...rk/2263319002/
                          That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by state of hockey View Post
                            Steve is a compete POS. Nothing shows beyond a reasonable doubt that he did this, though. That's it.
                            I don’t have much of an opinion on Avery as a person, out of curiosity why do you think he’s a pos? So much of the narrative has been controlled (until mam) by the people railroading him. Is it the cat incident? Or?

                            Not to diminish the cat situation. If he did throw a cat over the bonfire he should be duly charged with cruelty to animals.
                            Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                            "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                            "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                            Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                            Comment


                            • Re: Making a Murderer updates

                              Originally posted by solovsfett View Post
                              I don’t have much of an opinion on Avery as a person, out of curiosity why do you think he’s a pos? So much of the narrative has been controlled (until mam) by the people railroading him. Is it the cat incident? Or?

                              Not to diminish the cat situation. If he did throw a cat over the bonfire he should be duly charged with cruelty to animals.
                              For me, it's his demeanor, attitudes, just how he comes across.
                              Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                              Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by The Rube View Post
                                For me, it's his demeanor, attitudes, just how he comes across.
                                Fair enough. He’s definitely not a bright guy and playing chicken with a sheriff’s deputy is Darwin worthy for sure.
                                Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                                "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                                "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                                Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                                Comment

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