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Thread: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

  1. #541
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by alfablue View Post
    When you count how many times the money circulates, thatís how you get those numbers.
    Yeah, but I thought it was more along the lines of if a person is given $1 to spend, itís likely it will encourage some percent of a dollar to be spent out of savings in addition to the original dollar. Or are we talking about the same thing?

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Try being a ref. After last high school season I was hurtiní.
    Yeah used to do hockey and soccer. You're not wrong, especially some of the worse soccer teams where there tends to be less build up and more booting the ball long and chasing.

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
    Then why are you trying to compare by percentage and whining about it?
    The point is that money being tied up and sitting there does nobody any good, this isn't hard to comprehend for anyone but you.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Where are the productivity gains coming from: the automation or the people.

    If it's coming from people, you're completely right.
    If it's coming from the automation (able to do things faster and more accurately) and the human is just loading the machine*, the human is not adding the value.

    If you want higher pay you have to add value. Heck, if you want to have a job at all**. And doing that means continually bettering your skill set.


    *And more and more machines are becoming self-loading or have drone forklifts that they signal and get automatic deliveries.
    **My guess is those remaining 60 are IT/network people and automation specialists (programmers/EEs/mechatronics techs).
    Humans program the machines to become more efficient it doesn't just happen on its own.
    Last edited by trixR4kids; 11-10-2017 at 09:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Where are the productivity gains coming from: the automation or the people.

    If it's coming from people, you're completely right.
    If it's coming from the automation (able to do things faster and more accurately) and the human is just loading the machine*, the human is not adding the value.

    If you want higher pay you have to add value. Heck, if you want to have a job at all**. And doing that means continually bettering your skill set.


    *And more and more machines are becoming self-loading or have drone forklifts that they signal and get automatic deliveries.
    **My guess is those remaining 60 are IT/network people and automation specialists (programmers/EEs/mechatronics techs).
    Then why do I constantly see articles about companies struggling to hire and the "creative" things they have to do. Here's an idea, pay more and the workers will come.

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    That and you either have government subsidize corporations who don't pay their employees' cost of living via welfare (see Walmart) or you put that burden on employers rather than tax paying citizens.

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    The point is that money being tied up and sitting there does nobody any good, this isn't hard to comprehend for anyone but you.
    So in other words, you're jealous they have savings and you want a piece of it? Give them a reason to part with it. I guarantee your butthurt won't work.
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    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
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    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    You're a bright one Frauddy.

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Elizabeth Warren on her Facebook did a Video with Al Franken where they discuss the tax cut. They read a quote from many CEO's from Major Corporations where they state what they would do with the money from the tax cut.

    In every case it was higher dividends and stock repurchase. Every single one. Not one of them said anything about worker's wages, or expansion in the US. Not one.

    This tax bill is frightening to say the least.
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    ...Not one of them said anything about worker's wages, or expansion in the US. Not one...
    The only way wages increase is if there is competition for employees. Currently it is very unlikely that employers will actually have to compete to fill open jobs so wages will not increase significantly.

    For some fields and some people yes, but they would see increases with or without the corp tax cut.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    The point is that money being tied up and sitting there does nobody any good, this isn't hard to comprehend for anyone but you.


    Humans program the machines to become more efficient it doesn't just happen on its own.
    And those humans have done well

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by sagard View Post
    The only way wages increase is if there is competition for employees. Currently it is very unlikely that employers will actually have to compete to fill open jobs so wages will not increase significantly.

    For some fields and some people yes, but they would see increases with or without the corp tax cut.
    I think you miss the point. My wages would increase if they gave me the tax cut instead. And I would spend the money thus helping the overall economy. Giving it to Corporations does nothing except funnel the money to the 1%.
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    Humans program the machines to become more efficient it doesn't just happen on its own.
    I know. I do it for a living. And I have to keep pushing my skill set forward every day.

    Like it says in the one article I linked to, a Chinese factory went from 600 to 60 via automation. My guess is that of those 60 remaining its a few janitorial, a few skilled mechanics for maintenance and repair of high-tech machinery, a few industrial/process engineers, and a few controls/automation engineers. All the blue collar jobs are gone because they are not value adding positions (that were replaced by automation).
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Then why do I constantly see articles about companies struggling to hire and the "creative" things they have to do. Here's an idea, pay more and the workers will come.
    Where I live it is flat out demographics. The work force is aging out and retiring. Another (unfortunately significant) part of the workforce applies, interviews, but never shows up for the mandatory pre-employment drug screening.

    When I have to go to my boss and recommend putting in another robot or automated handler I don't even feel guilty anymore. We have the help wanted sign out with the best pay in the county/region.

    All that said, allow me to ask you question but only slightly differently: What are these folks doing to survive if the offered pay isn't worth their time?
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Elizabeth Warren on her Facebook did a Video with Al Franken where they discuss the tax cut. They read a quote from many CEO's from Major Corporations where they state what they would do with the money from the tax cut.

    In every case it was higher dividends and stock repurchase. Every single one. Not one of them said anything about worker's wages, or expansion in the US. Not one.
    OK, the neural spark just fired so it really hasn't been thought through ...

    What if the only thing in this country that could be income taxed is an individual (not corporations). And, what if every dollar that comes into an individual's hands in a reporting year, no matter the source (income, interest, cap gain, dividend, lotto, whatever) was taxed. Income is income (source agnostic).

    Yes, the tax rate would sound very large to generate the revenue. But, if the corporation isn't paying workers but instead paying dividends, uh, whups, money still taxed as income to someone.

    The hidden benefit: There's no longer incentives for corporations to manipulate tax code (aka buy politicians) as tax code now only affects individuals.

    OK, blow up the notion. I'm sure there's an aspect I'm overlooking. (One thing I see is the company that had a big year doing a big stock buy back, unless, .... the stock bought back shows up as income to the seller.)
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 11-10-2017 at 02:34 PM.
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    OK, the neural spark just fired so it really hasn't been thought through ...

    What if the only thing in this country that could be income taxed is an individual (not corporations). And, what if every dollar that comes into an individual's hands in a reporting year, no matter the source (income, interest, cap gain, dividend, lotto, whatever) was taxed. Income is income (source agnostic).

    Yes, the tax rate would sound very large to generate the revenue. But, if the corporation isn't paying workers but instead paying dividends, uh, whups, money still taxed as income to someone.

    The hidden benefit: There's no longer incentives for corporations to manipulate tax code (aka buy politicians) as tax code now only affects individuals.

    OK, blow up the notion. I'm sure there's an aspect I'm overlooking. (One thing I see is the company that had a big year doing a big stock buy back, unless, .... the stock bought back shows up as income to the seller.)
    That could possible work. Stock Buyback would have to show up somewhere, and yes, probably the seller.
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    All the blue collar jobs are gone because they are not value adding positions (that were replaced by automation).
    Yeah that's kinda the problem that needs to be solved and a big difference in why the middle class no longer exists.

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Elizabeth Warren on her Facebook did a Video with Al Franken where they discuss the tax cut. They read a quote from many CEO's from Major Corporations where they state what they would do with the money from the tax cut.

    In every case it was higher dividends and stock repurchase. Every single one. Not one of them said anything about worker's wages, or expansion in the US. Not one.

    This tax bill is frightening to say the least.
    The great thing about the buying stocks and paying dividends is 1) the tax rate on that vs. just salaries are significantly less, and 2) it goes right into a hole and rarely ever comes back out. Makes the tax cuts completely pointless.

    Do people not understand our economy is 100% based on people buying stuff??? And they need to be paid a decent amount to buy stuff.

    Automation is great for businesses and shareholders, but questionable at some point for the overall economy. Not everyone is going to be on that higher paying job track- some will just not have a job, and be forgotten. Like those people in PA.

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    OK, the neural spark just fired so it really hasn't been thought through ...

    What if the only thing in this country that could be income taxed is an individual (not corporations). And, what if every dollar that comes into an individual's hands in a reporting year, no matter the source (income, interest, cap gain, dividend, lotto, whatever) was taxed. Income is income (source agnostic).

    Yes, the tax rate would sound very large to generate the revenue. But, if the corporation isn't paying workers but instead paying dividends, uh, whups, money still taxed as income to someone.

    The hidden benefit: There's no longer incentives for corporations to manipulate tax code (aka buy politicians) as tax code now only affects individuals.

    OK, blow up the notion. I'm sure there's an aspect I'm overlooking. (One thing I see is the company that had a big year doing a big stock buy back, unless, .... the stock bought back shows up as income to the seller.)
    One issue I see with that is that wages and payments would have to go up to offset the corporate taxes. Which I suspect will be very difficult.

    But otherwise, seems like a good idea. Have to think about it for a little.

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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    Yeah that's kinda the problem that needs to be solved and a big difference in why the middle class no longer exists.
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    Re: Business, Economics & Tax Policy 5.0: Can a blind nut find a squirrel?

    Quote Originally Posted by alfablue View Post
    One issue I see with that is that wages and payments would have to go up to offset the corporate taxes. Which I suspect will be very difficult.
    Agree, wages would need to go up. And the rate would still look very scary.

    However, in this thought exercise, corporations aren't paying taxes.
    What'll they do with the money they make?

    Higher wages? Income. Taxed.
    Dividends? The receiver is taxed as income.
    Stock buy backs? We talked that one above. Income. Taxed.
    Capital expenditures? They buy the goods from someone who has employees who has to make the same choices (dividends, wages, etc).

    What I like in here is the tacit way to get corporations out of the "buying politicians to manipulate the tax code for us" game. The tax code would affect "We the People" and maybe all of us would take notice. Democracy!
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