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  • #16
    Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

    Originally posted by GTOWN View Post
    My assumption goes like this: if the team didn't exist, the school would still incur a cost to attracting a replacement student (financial aid/academic scholarship), hence the true cost associated to the team should really be the incremental cost of the athletic scholarship vs what the school would have paid out anyway.
    This would depend upon whether a school has a fixed budget for financial aid that is distributed across the number of students that receive it, or whether the amount spent depends upon the specific students accepted. I'd also be very curious as to how a school's overall financial aid policy, such as Michigan's decision to charge zero tuition to any in-state student from a family that makes less than $65,000 a year, affects the accounting cost of athletic scholarships.

    Another important thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the big Division 1 schools, especially those in the Big 10 and ACC, are facing a financial armageddon in the not so distant future. Whenever the next round of rights fees negotiations come up with ESPN, they are likely to involve a lot less money coming in to the athletic departments as ESPN's business model has collapsed. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that schools are thinking that far ahead in the capital expenditure decisions they are making right now. So, there could be a big crunch coming.

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    • #17
      Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

      Originally posted by Eeyore View Post
      This would depend upon whether a school has a fixed budget for financial aid that is distributed across the number of students that receive it, or whether the amount spent depends upon the specific students accepted. I'd also be very curious as to how a school's overall financial aid policy, such as Michigan's decision to charge zero tuition to any in-state student from a family that makes less than $65,000 a year, affects the accounting cost of athletic scholarships.

      Another important thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the big Division 1 schools, especially those in the Big 10 and ACC, are facing a financial armageddon in the not so distant future. Whenever the next round of rights fees negotiations come up with ESPN, they are likely to involve a lot less money coming in to the athletic departments as ESPN's business model has collapsed. Unfortunately, I'm not seeing a lot of evidence that schools are thinking that far ahead in the capital expenditure decisions they are making right now. So, there could be a big crunch coming.

      Agree that the next round of TV rights won't be nearly as lucrative....perhaps coaches and staff of the higher profile sports will have to go back to making good wages instead of ridiculous wages. there are many ways to pare down costs without necessarily have to axe a program.

      Regardless of whether financial aid is a fixed budget or not, there can still be an allocation assigned to each player. Just to put things into perspective: if the average student receives $10,000 in financial aid/scholarships (just a number I picked out of thin air - not based on anything) that's $250,000 for a typical hockey team, that may not solve all the perception issues but in combination with a little belt tightening, I'm sure it would make a lot of programs look much better.

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      • #18
        Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

        Originally posted by GTOWN View Post
        Hi Sean,

        when looking at the budget for all these programs I know that the full athletic scholarship costs get attached to each team. However, would it be fair to back out the average (since I don't think actuals are available) financial aid / academic scholarship that each of these schools gives their students?

        My assumption goes like this: if the team didn't exist, the school would still incur a cost to attracting a replacement student (financial aid/academic scholarship), hence the true cost associated to the team should really be the incremental cost of the athletic scholarship vs what the school would have paid out anyway.
        Originally posted by GTOWN View Post
        Regardless of whether financial aid is a fixed budget or not, there can still be an allocation assigned to each player. Just to put things into perspective: if the average student receives $10,000 in financial aid/scholarships (just a number I picked out of thin air - not based on anything) that's $250,000 for a typical hockey team, that may not solve all the perception issues but in combination with a little belt tightening, I'm sure it would make a lot of programs look much better.
        That may be, but I really don't have any interest in compiling and crunching those numbers. Just getting the annual tuition costs for the private schools (and Alabama-Huntsville) was a real pain. If you want to try please do; it would be interesting to see what numbers you come up with.

        Sean
        Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
        Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

        BU Hockey Games
        BU Hockey highlights and extras
        NCAA Hockey Financials
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        I need a kidney; looking for a donor

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        • #19
          Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

          Originally posted by GTOWN View Post
          Regardless of whether financial aid is a fixed budget or not, there can still be an allocation assigned to each player. Just to put things into perspective: if the average student receives $10,000 in financial aid/scholarships (just a number I picked out of thin air - not based on anything) that's $250,000 for a typical hockey team, that may not solve all the perception issues but in combination with a little belt tightening, I'm sure it would make a lot of programs look much better.
          If the school has a fixed financial aid budget, you are positing a savings that is not just hypothetical, but fictional. If the 18 athletic scholarships were not offered, the school would collect an amount of tuition equal to 18 times the total tuition from the other students admitted, not 18 times the tuition minus $10,000.

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          • #20
            Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

            Originally posted by Eeyore View Post
            If the school has a fixed financial aid budget, you are positing a savings that is not just hypothetical, but fictional. If the 18 athletic scholarships were not offered, the school would collect an amount of tuition equal to 18 times the total tuition from the other students admitted, not 18 times the tuition minus $10,000.
            Let me start by saying that this is just for discussion purposes - to get the juices flowing so to speak! I went on to collegefactual.com and used their "average financial aid" number for each school, that means that averaged across freshmen this is the allocated aid package. Using this measure you could argue that if an athlete was replaced with a regular freshman then this is the "investment" that the school would be making in that freshman. I took Sean's "Earned Loss" for 2016 and adjusted for the impact of the average financial aid. The losses are still significant but reduced by as much as 55.5% in the case of Maine. (Sorry folks can't figure out how to make it look pretty!)
            And yes, I'm in sales so I'm used to spinning numbers

            School %Earned Loss Adj. Earned Loss
            Wisconsin 13.6% $(1,999,121)
            North Dakota 16.9% $(1,728,026)
            Minnesota 18.8% $(1,638,464)
            Ohio State 16.5% $(1,674,550)
            Connecticut 27.4% $(1,198,294)
            New Hampshire 27.9% $(1,125,058)
            Vermont 36.9% $(881,577)
            Minnesota Duluth 25.1% $(954,743)
            Minnesota State 24.3% $(941,019)
            Bemidji 27.5% $(852,542)
            St. Cloud 24.9% $(844,680)
            Penn State 40.7% $(549,955)
            Maine 55.5% $(335,530)

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            • #21
              Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

              Originally posted by GTOWN View Post
              Let me start by saying that this is just for discussion purposes - to get the juices flowing so to speak! I went on to collegefactual.com and used their "average financial aid" number for each school, that means that averaged across freshmen this is the allocated aid package. Using this measure you could argue that if an athlete was replaced with a regular freshman then this is the "investment" that the school would be making in that freshman. I took Sean's "Earned Loss" for 2016 and adjusted for the impact of the average financial aid. The losses are still significant but reduced by as much as 55.5% in the case of Maine. (Sorry folks can't figure out how to make it look pretty!)
              Again, you're not getting the point. If a school has a fixed financial aid budget, the opportunity cost of admitting an athlete on scholarship as opposed to a regular freshman is the entire cost of tuition, not the cost of the tuition discounted by the average financial aid. If that hypothetical regular freshman were to get any financial aid, it would not be an additional cost to the school; it would come from the amount of financial aid given to other incoming freshmen being reduced by that amount. The school wouldn't be making, to use your term, any additional net investment in its student body. There is no reduction to make.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

                Originally posted by Eeyore View Post
                Again, you're not getting the point. If a school has a fixed financial aid budget, the opportunity cost of admitting an athlete on scholarship as opposed to a regular freshman is the entire cost of tuition, not the cost of the tuition discounted by the average financial aid. If that hypothetical regular freshman were to get any financial aid, it would not be an additional cost to the school; it would come from the amount of financial aid given to other incoming freshmen being reduced by that amount. The school wouldn't be making, to use your term, any additional net investment in its student body. There is no reduction to make.
                I completely get your point. However, I said I'm simply putting this out there to have a little fun and provoke discussion (clearly its working).

                If the variance is small enough (adding 5-6 students - typical freshman class for a hockey team), it won't alter the average significantly when the total freshman class is 500, 600 or 1000 students. And before you say it, yes I understand that if we did this across all sports then the impact to the average becomes material. I'm just messing around with numbers.

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                • #23
                  Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

                  Originally posted by GTOWN View Post
                  I completely get your point. However, I said I'm simply putting this out there to have a little fun and provoke discussion (clearly its working).

                  If the variance is small enough (adding 5-6 students - typical freshman class for a hockey team), it won't alter the average significantly when the total freshman class is 500, 600 or 1000 students. And before you say it, yes I understand that if we did this across all sports then the impact to the average becomes material. I'm just messing around with numbers.
                  I'm not sure what the point of trying to create discussion with numbers you recognize are meaningless is, but have at it.

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                  • #24
                    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

                    But would the school get the additional students if they did not offer sports?
                    CCT '77 & '78
                    4 kids
                    5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                    1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                    - Benjamin Franklin

                    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                    • #25
                      Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

                      Originally posted by joecct View Post
                      But would the school get the additional students if they did not offer sports?
                      Are you saying that students pick their school based on sports?
                      Please cite the reference to the data that backs that up.
                      I was a huge Gopher fan, starting in about 5th grade, not surprisingly particularly hockey. I attended games back in the old barn when half full was a good crowd, long before it was the Friday/Saturday social scene it is now. They even had a couple Canadians playing for them.
                      When I was deciding on a college in high school, the school sport teams were the farthest thing from my mind, what programs did the school have and were there lots of pretty girls.
                      Did I mention girls? Sports were the farthest thing from my mind. Everybody I knew was the same.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                        Are you saying that students pick their school based on sports?
                        Please cite the reference to the data that backs that up.
                        I was a huge Gopher fan, starting in about 5th grade, not surprisingly particularly hockey. I attended games back in the old barn when half full was a good crowd, long before it was the Friday/Saturday social scene it is now. They even had a couple Canadians playing for them.
                        When I was deciding on a college in high school, the school sport teams were the farthest thing from my mind, what programs did the school have and were there lots of pretty girls.
                        Did I mention girls? Sports were the farthest thing from my mind. Everybody I knew was the same.
                        You missed the point.

                        The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

                        In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.
                        CCT '77 & '78
                        4 kids
                        5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                        1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                        ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                        - Benjamin Franklin

                        Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                        I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

                          Originally posted by joecct View Post
                          You missed the point.

                          The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

                          In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.
                          That's an interesting thought. I understand pokechecker's perspective but the success of the D1 football/basketball programs at some of the big schools has elevated their standing and prestige in the general population. So IMO there must be some impact, I guess the question is how much and how do you measure it.

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                          • #28
                            Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

                            Originally posted by joecct View Post
                            You missed the point.

                            The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

                            In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.
                            Let me put the kibosh to this immediately. Of the 62 schools for which I have information the averaged number of participants in all sports per school is 654, and this includes duplicates, so the number of actual student-athletes is less. The highest number of participants reported was 1,497 by Lindenwood in 2015 and the fewest was 143 by Alaska in 2010. So, same question, but can the schools fill 150-1,500 beds. I used the IPEDS site to obtain applicant, admission and enrollment data for the 63 schools that sponsored hockey for any years from 2009-16. Using that data I created another spreadsheet which lists total participants, applicants, admissions and enrollment for each school for each year that they sponsored hockey.

                            The first thing is every school accepted far more applicants than actually enrolled for each year. If enrollment is capped than a school only needs to increase the cap and would likely be able to fill the athletes spots from the pool of accepted students.

                            If enrollment is not capped many schools would likely still have little to no problem filling every spot taken by an athlete as the number of rejections comfortably exceeds the total number of athletic participants for all grades. Some of the schools might need to lower standards, but their pools of rejected applicants are large enough to offset the number of incoming athletes. The main exceptions would be AIC, Bemidji State, Lake Superior State, Lindenwood, Mercyhurst, Merrimack, Minnesota State, Robert Morris and St. Cloud State, all which have a very small number of rejections, some years less than their total number of participants. The two Alaska schools did not report numbers for 2010-2015, so determining their numbers is limited to just two years: 2009-10 and 2015-16.

                            Sean
                            Last edited by Sean Pickett; 06-20-2017, 12:36 PM.
                            Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
                            Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

                            BU Hockey Games
                            BU Hockey highlights and extras
                            NCAA Hockey Financials
                            Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
                            I need a kidney; looking for a donor

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                            • #29
                              Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

                              so what have you learned by gathering all this data?
                              summarize it for us (hopefully something beyond hockey is expensive)

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                              • #30
                                Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

                                Originally posted by Sean Pickett View Post
                                Let me put the kibosh to this immediately. .......
                                If enrollment is not capped many schools would likely still have little to no problem filling every spot taken by an athlete as the number of rejections comfortably exceeds the total number of athletic participants for all grades. Some of the schools might need to lower standards, .......
                                An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

                                http://www.timesunion.com/7day-break...n-11176914.php

                                So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

                                And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!
                                Fan of CLARKSON: 2014, 2017 & 2018 NC$$ WOMEN'S DIV 1 HOCKEY NATIONAL CHAMPIONS *******https://fanforum.uscho.com/core/images/smilies/smile.gi*********
                                And of 3 Patty Kaz recepients: Jamie Lee Rattray, Loren Gabel and Elizabeth Giguere
                                WHOOOOOOOOO WHOOOOOOOOO
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