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Thread: NCAA Hockey Financials

  1. #21
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    Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

    Quote Originally Posted by GTOWN View Post
    Let me start by saying that this is just for discussion purposes - to get the juices flowing so to speak! I went on to collegefactual.com and used their "average financial aid" number for each school, that means that averaged across freshmen this is the allocated aid package. Using this measure you could argue that if an athlete was replaced with a regular freshman then this is the "investment" that the school would be making in that freshman. I took Sean's "Earned Loss" for 2016 and adjusted for the impact of the average financial aid. The losses are still significant but reduced by as much as 55.5% in the case of Maine. (Sorry folks can't figure out how to make it look pretty!)
    Again, you're not getting the point. If a school has a fixed financial aid budget, the opportunity cost of admitting an athlete on scholarship as opposed to a regular freshman is the entire cost of tuition, not the cost of the tuition discounted by the average financial aid. If that hypothetical regular freshman were to get any financial aid, it would not be an additional cost to the school; it would come from the amount of financial aid given to other incoming freshmen being reduced by that amount. The school wouldn't be making, to use your term, any additional net investment in its student body. There is no reduction to make.

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    Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    Again, you're not getting the point. If a school has a fixed financial aid budget, the opportunity cost of admitting an athlete on scholarship as opposed to a regular freshman is the entire cost of tuition, not the cost of the tuition discounted by the average financial aid. If that hypothetical regular freshman were to get any financial aid, it would not be an additional cost to the school; it would come from the amount of financial aid given to other incoming freshmen being reduced by that amount. The school wouldn't be making, to use your term, any additional net investment in its student body. There is no reduction to make.
    I completely get your point. However, I said I'm simply putting this out there to have a little fun and provoke discussion (clearly its working).

    If the variance is small enough (adding 5-6 students - typical freshman class for a hockey team), it won't alter the average significantly when the total freshman class is 500, 600 or 1000 students. And before you say it, yes I understand that if we did this across all sports then the impact to the average becomes material. I'm just messing around with numbers.

  3. #23
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    Re: Overall and Earned Profit and Loss

    Quote Originally Posted by GTOWN View Post
    I completely get your point. However, I said I'm simply putting this out there to have a little fun and provoke discussion (clearly its working).

    If the variance is small enough (adding 5-6 students - typical freshman class for a hockey team), it won't alter the average significantly when the total freshman class is 500, 600 or 1000 students. And before you say it, yes I understand that if we did this across all sports then the impact to the average becomes material. I'm just messing around with numbers.
    I'm not sure what the point of trying to create discussion with numbers you recognize are meaningless is, but have at it.

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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    But would the school get the additional students if they did not offer sports?

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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    But would the school get the additional students if they did not offer sports?
    Are you saying that students pick their school based on sports?
    Please cite the reference to the data that backs that up.
    I was a huge Gopher fan, starting in about 5th grade, not surprisingly particularly hockey. I attended games back in the old barn when half full was a good crowd, long before it was the Friday/Saturday social scene it is now. They even had a couple Canadians playing for them.
    When I was deciding on a college in high school, the school sport teams were the farthest thing from my mind, what programs did the school have and were there lots of pretty girls.
    Did I mention girls? Sports were the farthest thing from my mind. Everybody I knew was the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    Are you saying that students pick their school based on sports?
    Please cite the reference to the data that backs that up.
    I was a huge Gopher fan, starting in about 5th grade, not surprisingly particularly hockey. I attended games back in the old barn when half full was a good crowd, long before it was the Friday/Saturday social scene it is now. They even had a couple Canadians playing for them.
    When I was deciding on a college in high school, the school sport teams were the farthest thing from my mind, what programs did the school have and were there lots of pretty girls.
    Did I mention girls? Sports were the farthest thing from my mind. Everybody I knew was the same.
    You missed the point.

    The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

    In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.

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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    You missed the point.

    The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

    In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.
    That's an interesting thought. I understand pokechecker's perspective but the success of the D1 football/basketball programs at some of the big schools has elevated their standing and prestige in the general population. So IMO there must be some impact, I guess the question is how much and how do you measure it.

  8. #28
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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    You missed the point.

    The athletes. If you had 10,000 beds, would they all be filled if there were not the athletes to fill some of them.

    In other words, would admissions be able to fill the athletes' beds if there were no athletes.
    Let me put the kibosh to this immediately. Of the 62 schools for which I have information the averaged number of participants in all sports per school is 654, and this includes duplicates, so the number of actual student-athletes is less. The highest number of participants reported was 1,497 by Lindenwood in 2015 and the fewest was 143 by Alaska in 2010. So, same question, but can the schools fill 150-1,500 beds. I used the IPEDS site to obtain applicant, admission and enrollment data for the 63 schools that sponsored hockey for any years from 2009-16. Using that data I created another spreadsheet which lists total participants, applicants, admissions and enrollment for each school for each year that they sponsored hockey.

    The first thing is every school accepted far more applicants than actually enrolled for each year. If enrollment is capped than a school only needs to increase the cap and would likely be able to fill the athletes spots from the pool of accepted students.

    If enrollment is not capped many schools would likely still have little to no problem filling every spot taken by an athlete as the number of rejections comfortably exceeds the total number of athletic participants for all grades. Some of the schools might need to lower standards, but their pools of rejected applicants are large enough to offset the number of incoming athletes. The main exceptions would be AIC, Bemidji State, Lake Superior State, Lindenwood, Mercyhurst, Merrimack, Minnesota State, Robert Morris and St. Cloud State, all which have a very small number of rejections, some years less than their total number of participants. The two Alaska schools did not report numbers for 2010-2015, so determining their numbers is limited to just two years: 2009-10 and 2015-16.

    Sean
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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    so what have you learned by gathering all this data?
    summarize it for us (hopefully something beyond hockey is expensive)
    if anybody knows any illegals needing a ride to Canada, lemme know
    ... once the migrants are in Canada they are released and can live freely while their claims for refugee status are processed, which can take years. Meanwhile, they are eligible for public assistance.

  10. #30
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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Let me put the kibosh to this immediately. .......
    If enrollment is not capped many schools would likely still have little to no problem filling every spot taken by an athlete as the number of rejections comfortably exceeds the total number of athletic participants for all grades. Some of the schools might need to lower standards, .......
    An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

    http://www.timesunion.com/7day-break...n-11176914.php

    So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

    And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!
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  11. #31
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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    Quote Originally Posted by vicb View Post
    An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

    http://www.timesunion.com/7day-break...n-11176914.php

    So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

    And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!
    This will also have an impact on recruiting for all sports. particularly at the D3 level. Go out of state and get some academic scholarships/financial aid or stay in state and get a free education. Do the SUNY schools become stronger over time by keeping their athletes in state?

  12. #32
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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    so what have you learned by gathering all this data?
    summarize it for us (hopefully something beyond hockey is expensive)
    I have already written several posts about what I have learned, but bottom line: hockey is cheap, not expensive.

    Of the 29 DI schools that have football and men's and/or women's hockey only two (North Dakota, 20.4%; Maine, 10.2%) averaged more than 10% on men's hockey, with the range between 1.5% and 9.1%. None averaged more than 7.0% on women's hockey, ranging from said 7.0% down to 1.1%. Of the 11 DI schools without football men's hockey ranged from UMass Lowell's 17.7% (but failing as they transitioned to DI) to Mercyhurst's 9.2%. For women's teams it ranges from 6.4% to 11.3%. For DII/DIII schools for men it ranges from AIC's 7.4% to Colorado College's 38.4%, well for women it ranges from 4.5% to 19.6%.

    I have also learned that every single school spends more on men's programs than they do on women's programs.

    I have further learned that North Dakota supports their men's team at a level that none of the other DI schools do for their men's teams.

    Finally, I have learned that the success of Minnesota's and Wisconsin's women's teams appears to be causing an increase in overall expenditures on women's hockey by the rest of the schools that sponsor the sport.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vicb View Post
    An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

    http://www.timesunion.com/7day-break...n-11176914.php

    So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

    And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!
    Clarkson has about 100 less in this year's first year class. They point to Gov. Cuomo.

    That's about $3 million less in income (figuring the average Bill is $30K).

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    Quote Originally Posted by vicb View Post
    An interesting thing is happening in New York. Free tuition this fall for any New York resident.

    http://www.timesunion.com/7day-break...n-11176914.php

    So what is going to happen to the private schools in New York as far as their applications and admissions from in state students? State University of New York is going to have no issues attracting students. Can the same be said for the private colleges? Do they have to spend more time attracting out of state or foreign students. Only time is gonna tell on this one.

    And who is footing the bill for this program. Hmmmmmmm!!!
    There are a lot of caveats to that "free" education which might not in the end make it so "free" anymore...

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    Are you saying that students pick their school based on sports?
    Absolutely some do.

    When I was picking a school, I had three criteria:
    1) It had to be a small school.
    2) It had to have a good computer science program.
    3) It had to have a hockey team.

    My Uncle picked Syracuse because he was leaning towards a big school with a big time football program ... even though he didn't play. (I think he majored in Engineering.)

    I know people who specifically only look at huge schools like Big Ten schools because they can offer so much including multiple sports programs, even if they don't play.

    Prospective students look for different things in their overall college experience, and for some, sports is a major part of that experience.

  16. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Jaslow View Post
    There are a lot of caveats to that "free" education which might not in the end make it so "free" anymore...
    True, but in the area where we went to college there are a lot of families who could take advantage of the program.

    Gripes Russell, those were my criteria, too!!!

  17. #37
    2009 NCAA Champions Sean Pickett's Avatar
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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Clarkson has about 100 less in this year's first year class. They point to Gov. Cuomo.
    Looking at my spreadsheet Clarkson's incoming enrollment ranged from a low of 712 in 2010 to a high of 851 the following year (year on spreadsheet is end of school year, i.e., 2011 is the 2010-11 school year). Do you know if the school wanted higher and lower enrollments those years?

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    Re: NCAA Hockey Financials

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    I have already written several posts about what I have learned, but bottom line: hockey is cheap, not expensive.

    Of the 29 DI schools that have football and men's and/or women's hockey only two (North Dakota, 20.4%; Maine, 10.2%) averaged more than 10% on men's hockey, with the range between 1.5% and 9.1%. None averaged more than 7.0% on women's hockey, ranging from said 7.0% down to 1.1%. Of the 11 DI schools without football men's hockey ranged from UMass Lowell's 17.7% (but failing as they transitioned to DI) to Mercyhurst's 9.2%. For women's teams it ranges from 6.4% to 11.3%. For DII/DIII schools for men it ranges from AIC's 7.4% to Colorado College's 38.4%, well for women it ranges from 4.5% to 19.6%.

    I have also learned that every single school spends more on men's programs than they do on women's programs.

    I have further learned that North Dakota supports their men's team at a level that none of the other DI schools do for their men's teams.

    Finally, I have learned that the success of Minnesota's and Wisconsin's women's teams appears to be causing an increase in overall expenditures on women's hockey by the rest of the schools that sponsor the sport.

    Sean
    using % of expenditure means nothing as a measure of whether a sport is expensive or not
    as for your other findings, duh, you had to go to all that work to come to that conclusion?
    oh well, it is your time
    if anybody knows any illegals needing a ride to Canada, lemme know
    ... once the migrants are in Canada they are released and can live freely while their claims for refugee status are processed, which can take years. Meanwhile, they are eligible for public assistance.

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