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Thread: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    Let's chalk it up to you being in high school and a moron

    The evidence was next to nothing, the rhetoric totally justified it. Kind of like anything Trump wants to do. The AHCA is amazing coverage for all. The wall will be beautiful and Mexico will pay for it...I could go on. Iraq played no role in 9/11, and Sadam actually kept terrorists out of Iraq. Pretty much anyone outside of the administration would tell you there were no WMDs, yet the Ds were still too afraid of being called un-American to vote their conscience.
    MOST politicians won't vote their conscience. They'll vote party lines.
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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    MOST politicians won't vote their conscience. They'll vote party lines.
    The party line was "We're spineless."

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    The party line was "We're spineless."
    My point is, don't blame the Dems for voting as such. Both parties do this all the time.
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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    My point is, don't blame the Dems for voting as such. Both parties do this all the time.
    And your point is wrong in this case. The Dems caved to pressure from the right, not from their own constituency. You tell me the last time you saw the Rs cave to pressure from the left.

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    And your point is wrong in this case. The Dems caved to pressure from the right, not from their own constituency. You tell me the last time you saw the Rs cave to pressure from the left.
    I never said that. I said that parties will vote their party's lines, even if they disagree with those lines.
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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    I think you're way overplaying the Iraq war angle. It could have been because I was still in high school and a moron, but the evidence was fairly compelling at the time. Again, young and dumb.

    Obviously now we know it completely destabilized the Middle East. But back then it wasn't so obvious. I remember Syria being somewhat of a destination for a few friends in high school going on vacation.

    He war hadn't turned ugly in time for the 2004 election. I voted for Boring McWhateverface, but it wasn't a choice like 2016 where only a moron couldn't see Trump playing out like he has.

    I'll chalk it up to being young, but Bush didn't induce derangement until much later.
    Yeah you were young and a moron. There was no evidence they made it all up. They kept trying to prove they were right after the fact and even that failed.
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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    Let's chalk it up to you being in high school and a moron

    The evidence was next to nothing, the rhetoric totally justified it. Kind of like anything Trump wants to do. The AHCA is amazing coverage for all. The wall will be beautiful and Mexico will pay for it...I could go on. Iraq played no role in 9/11, and Sadam actually kept terrorists out of Iraq. Pretty much anyone outside of the administration would tell you there were no WMDs, yet the Ds were still too afraid of being called un-American to vote their conscience.
    In March 2003, support for that lousy war was a little over 70%. The Democrats in Congress were voting the way their constituents wanted them to vote. By the time the election rolled around some 20 months later, support was still around 50%, just a few points lower than that, likely. And it wasn't until after the 2004 elections that the news about the fraudulent evidence of WMDs had really started to hit home the average American.
    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    In March 2003, support for that lousy war was a little over 70%. The Democrats in Congress were voting the way their constituents wanted them to vote. By the time the election rolled around some 20 months later, support was still around 50%, just a few points lower than that, likely. And it wasn't until after the 2004 elections that the news about the fraudulent evidence of WMDs had really started to hit home the average American.
    And that is part of my earlier point about confirmation bias. The anger and passion immediately after 9/11/01 was through the roof, a perfect environment for those wanting to take advantage. To have support for the Iraq war at only 50% only 3 years later is pretty remarkable and an indication of how evident it was that invading was a bad, bad decision. People had to walk back a long ways to acknowledge that it was a serious blunder. That solid core on the right can still rationalize it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    I think you're way overplaying the Iraq war angle. It could have been because I was still in high school and a moron, but the evidence was fairly compelling at the time. Again, young and dumb
    I was in college at the time. We had massive arguments about it in a political forum on our schools FirstClass system. It seemed only a few righties thought the evidence was a slam dunk and supported the invasion (basically members of the College Republicans. One of these guys ended up being CEO of some stupid "free market think tank". I don't remember anyone with a fully functioning brain thinking this was a good idea.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BassAle View Post
    I was in college at the time. We had massive arguments about it in a political forum on our schools FirstClass system. It seemed only a few righties thought the evidence was a slam dunk and supported the invasion (basically members of the College Republicans. One of these guys ended up being CEO of some stupid "free market think tank". I don't remember anyone with a fully functioning brain thinking this was a good idea.
    The planning and execution were fine. The endgame got an F of massive proportions.

    Democracy works in a few places. The rest - give them a benevolent despot. Most won't care who is running the country as long as they have full bellies and have a decent standard of living.

    Political opposition is fine as long as they realize tbeir place. Co-op a few of tbeir ideas, but arrest the lunatics and keep the moderates and sloths in charge.

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The planning and execution were fine. The endgame got an F of massive proportions.

    Democracy works in a few places. The rest - give them a benevolent despot. Most won't care who is running the country as long as they have full bellies and have a decent standard of living.

    Political opposition is fine as long as they realize tbeir place. Co-op a few of tbeir ideas, but arrest the lunatics and keep the moderates and sloths in charge.
    The endgame got an F for all the reasons Cheney said it would when Bush I chose not to invade. If you include the decision to invade as part of what you describe as "fine," I have to wonder. (And I don't think you do, but it is unclear)

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The planning and execution were fine. The endgame got an F of massive proportions.
    Only if you exclude "having a good reason" as part of the planning process. I was in college, and even I knew the rationale for going in was bogus. It wasn't about WMD, it wasn't about oil, it was W trying to avenge Daddy.

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    Let's chalk it up to you being in high school and a moron

    The evidence was next to nothing, the rhetoric totally justified it. Kind of like anything Trump wants to do. The AHCA is amazing coverage for all. The wall will be beautiful and Mexico will pay for it...I could go on. Iraq played no role in 9/11, and Sadam actually kept terrorists out of Iraq. Pretty much anyone outside of the administration would tell you there were no WMDs, yet the Ds were still too afraid of being called un-American to vote their conscience.
    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    Yeah you were young and a moron. There was no evidence they made it all up. They kept trying to prove they were right after the fact and even that failed.
    Fair enough. I just vaguely remember that the real anti war pressure didn't ramp up until after the election.

    Quote Originally Posted by jerphisch View Post
    And your point is wrong in this case. The Dems caved to pressure from the right, not from their own constituency. You tell me the last time you saw the Rs cave to pressure from the left.
    This is a really good point.

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    We made that catastrophic decision because the powers that be took advantage of anger and fear. Nobody takes advantage of anger, ignorance, and fear like the people steering Good Ship GOP, and nobody allows themselves to be manipulated through anger, ignorance, and fear like those poor souls in the solid red states whose lives continue to get worse as a result.

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    In March 2003, support for that lousy war was a little over 70%. The Democrats in Congress were voting the way their constituents wanted them to vote. By the time the election rolled around some 20 months later, support was still around 50%, just a few points lower than that, likely. And it wasn't until after the 2004 elections that the news about the fraudulent evidence of WMDs had really started to hit home the average American.
    Support was high...evidence was lacking though
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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The planning and execution were fine. The endgame got an F of massive proportions.

    Democracy works in a few places. The rest - give them a benevolent despot. Most won't care who is running the country as long as they have full bellies and have a decent standard of living.

    Political opposition is fine as long as they realize tbeir place. Co-op a few of tbeir ideas, but arrest the lunatics and keep the moderates and sloths in charge.
    With all due respect, the planning was horrible. And the reason it lasted SO LONG after the battles were won.

    Sure, the planning of the fighting was good- given a massive superiority on all sides of fighting, even bad planning would have been fine.

    But the planning for what to do after the fighting was done was the actual problem with the war. Ignore the problem that WMD's were never found, especially anything related to nuclear weapons- where the leaders were totally clueless was how to rebuild the country. Had that been done well, I don't think ISIS would have had 10 years to form. Nor would have we lost many lives in the long hanging battles against a guerrilla force.

    One could easily presume that anyone voting for the war gave the planners the benefit of the doubt that it was well planned out and could have been easily executed. Which means that a good sized amount of the D's thought that it would be a fast war.

    I will also extend to think that democracy works than more than a few places. When democracy is properly bounded, it works just fine. Better than fine. The more robust and less violent opposition that we have is very good. And by violent- I mean both the actual actions of the opposition as well as the reactive actions back to the opposition. The recent trend of one side pretty blatantly threatening violence has taken the "opposition" to a totally new level. Not the fear mongering- that's been going on for a long time. But the use of crosshairs in a round picture, or reminding the NRA that they have the ability to rise up when they are not happy- things like that really make it bad.

    The proper opposition is in the voting booth- not via intimidation.

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    THIS. ALL THIS. Hell, Newt coulda blown Bill in the middle of a Congressional Session, and I wouldn't have cared. Just don't lie about it under oath.
    Yeah, but Trump's still going to eat Comey's lunch.There are no tapes.
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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    The planning and execution were fine. The endgame got an F of massive proportions.
    While planning "The War on Terror", we decided to eliminate the one government in the region that was hostile to terrorists. How is that good planning?

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    The right has also manipulated the narrative so thoroughly, especially since 9-11, that if you don't support the troops 100% (no matter what you think of the politics) then you are an unpatriotic piece of excrement and should be shunned, mocked and driven out. If the sale of this narrative wasn't so damaging it would be a thing of beauty to watch and admire because of its effectiveness.

    The right does this in a lot of ways, but one of the most effective has been selling the idea of the superiority of people who volunteered for military service over those who choose to serve their communities in ANY OTHER WAY. Part of the indoctrination process is a sales pitch to young recruits that encourages resentment and that sense of superiority over civilian America. If you don't think that is happening, you're not paying attention. Political leaders (of BOTH parties) then limit inconvenient dissent by accepting and repeating the erroneous message that only veterans are in a position or even deserving to have real opinions on military matters. So the only safe thing for the civilians to do is fall back on their tired and meaningless platitudes and phony grace. For heaven's sake I don't want someone to think I'm unpatriotic, so I won't question anything...

    We all feel great when we stand and cheer for the young veteran trotted out during the first media timeout of the second period in every single hockey arena in the country and shed a tear or two of appreciation when we see one of those "my son is a United States Marine" bumper stickers. Meanwhile we forget that the person who teaches in an inner city Cleveland public school, or who provides home health care to our grandmothers, or who hops off the back of the fire apparatus in Detroit hoping that enough other fire fighters show up to safely save your house while the one next door burns will have a much greater effect on your life than anyone currently serving a tour of duty in the military.

    It's too bad progressives can't come up with an effective way to get their message out instead. A lot of people, American and innocent Iraqis and other nationalities (if that even matters to you who are on the right wing) would still be alive today.
    Last edited by WeAreNDHockey; 06-10-2017 at 09:42 AM.

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    Re: POTUS 45.11: Attack! Repeat. Atrack!!!

    You've got it backwards. If you don't support hawkish policies 100% of the time then you don't support the troops. That's their line of attack.

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