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Thread: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

  1. #121
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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    An utterly usual case that I happened to look up this week: There's a defensive lineman on the Wisconsin football team named Chikwe Obasih who injured a knee during the first game this year (or in practice the week after, not clear). He hasn't played since. This past week there were stories in the newspaper that he might be cleared to play. I wondered if he or the coaches considered redshirting him, because playing at all at this point would blow the entire year of eligibility. I was pretty sure what I'd find when I looked, and sure enough, in 2013 he took a redshirt year because he was a freshman buried on the depth chart, and wasn't likely to see much time on the field anyway. There is zero chance he could sit out the rest of this year and then get a sixth year from the NCAA despite the 2017 knee injury, because the 2013 redshirt was by choice, and not "due to circumstances beyond the athlete's control".
    Your scenario for Obasih is missing one of the key elements to receiving a medical redshirt: you can't be cleared to play later in the season. If you are physically able to play, you can't decide not to in order to maintain a medical redshirt. The injury must force the end of your season. So, your question would be moot. Even if he isn't cleared to play, he most likely isn't eligible.

    The only question for the comparison between Kessel and (for one example) Obasih is whether taking a year off to go to the Olympics is or should be considered "beyond the athlete's control", etc.

    It's OK with me if it is. But I'll ask again: can you name one other athlete for whom taking off an Olympic year turned into a sixth year of eligibility? As far as I know, Kessel is not only a rare case, but may well be a unique one. If there are others, I'd love to hear about them.
    Honestly, if you really care about it this much, you really ought to do your own ****ed research. Go look through the NCAA Div 1 Manual. You're looking for Section 12.8.1.4.

    As for examples, I've found some in wrestling:

    Dustin Kilgore of Kent State: Redshirted in 2007-08, competed in 2008-09, 2009-10 & 2010-11. Took an Olympic redshirt for 2011-12. Competed in 2012-13. No injury involved at any stage.

    Jake Kettler: Redshirted at Minnesota in 2009-10. Competed at Minnesota in 2010-11. Transferred to George Mason and took anOlympic redshirt in 2011-12. Competed at GMU in 2012-13, 2013-14, & 2014-15.

    Tyler Graff (Oh, hey, look, he was a Badger!): Redshirted in 2008-09. Competed in 2009-10 & 2010-11. Took an Olympic redshirt in 2011-12. Competed in 2012-13 & 2013-14

    If you're really curious, you can find a list of wrestlers for whom this applied over the 2012 Olympics here, although at least one of them (Jake Deitchler of Minnesota) never finished his eligibility because concussions ended his career.

    So, all that your complaining really demonstrates is that you preferred whining to doing even a little bit of research. As I said, pathos.

  2. #122
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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    12.8.1.5.1 Waiver Criteria. A waiver of the five-year period of eligibility is designed to provide a studentathlete
    with the opportunity to participate in four seasons of intercollegiate competition within a five-year
    period. This waiver may be granted, based upon objective evidence, for reasons that are beyond the control
    of the student-athlete or the institution, which deprive the student-athlete of the opportunity to participate
    for more than one season in his or her sport within the five-year period.

    Looks pretty clear to me. The "more than one season" must be "for reasons that are beyond the control of the student-athlete"; otherwise, no sixth year.
    It looks pretty clear to you because you didn't bother to read any of the rest of that section of the NCAA Manual, specifically the bit right above what you quoted, namely 12.8.1.4.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Eeyore, if you look, I have reproduced 12.8.1.5.1 for everyone to read. (That number was as of April 2016.)

    I don't know whether Obasih was cleared or not. He didn't record any tackles this week, which makes me think he was not cleared.

    "Even if he isn't cleared to play, he most likely isn't eligible." Huh? Isn't that my argument?

    As for "do your own research", isn't asking questions of others a form of research? (Thanks for the answer/examples.)

    Lastly, google the phrase "denied sixth year", The results will be replete with cases of athletes who have been denied a sixth year for just what I described: a year taken off 'by choice' - lack of playing time, or transfer - followed by time lost due to injury (including, for Grant, ACLs) in a subsequent year. They applied for a sixth year, and were denied. Because not all the time missed was 'circumstances beyond their control.

  4. #124
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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    Eeyore, if you look, I have reproduced 12.8.1.5.1 for everyone to read. (That number was as of April 2016.)
    Yes, while I was writing my post, you went and quoted the wrong subsection of the manual. The Olympics and similar events are spelled out on their own. Scroll up from where you were, because we were using the same edition.

    "Even if he isn't cleared to play, he most likely isn't eligible." Huh? Isn't that my argument?
    Yes, it's your argument. It's the wrong argument regarding Kessel, but it is definitely yours.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    Yes, while I was writing my post, you went and quoted the wrong subsection of the manual.
    Wrong as far as Kessel, and any players from this year's Olympic teams; not wrong for Grant's assertion regarding "they will always, always get that second redshirt" for a later injury. Sorry. I was looking at an article regarding a particular athlete's case that happened to quote that section, and not the manual itself.
    Last edited by robertearle; 10-30-2017 at 01:59 AM.

  6. #126
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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Eeyore, two more things, one point/question and one perverse hypothetical for you:

    "If you are physically able to play, you can't decide not to in order to maintain a medical redshirt. The injury must force the end of your season."

    Wisconsin right now has a volleyball player, Molly Haggarty, who had back surgery in the off-season. She is back with the team, goes through warm-ups, etc, but is not playing. At the start of the year, she *might* have been "unable" to play, but she is clearly able now though not at her normal level (vertical jump, etc.). She is taking a red-shirt year. You're saying that because she's not totally disabled right now, her red-shirt this year is 'by choice' and not 'medical'? How does one decide the definition of "able to play"?

    Second, a hypothetical starring the Lamoureux. Let's say they don't use their Olympic year to also achieve their transfer from UM to ND. Instead, they come back and play a second year at UM, and then decide to transfer, and sit out another year. Olympics + injury got Kessel a sixth year; does Olympics + transfer get the Lams a sixth year, or is 'transfer' an insufficient 'by choice' reason, so no sixth year?

  7. #127
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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    Eeyore, two more things, one point/question and one perverse hypothetical for you:

    "If you are physically able to play, you can't decide not to in order to maintain a medical redshirt. The injury must force the end of your season."

    Wisconsin right now has a volleyball player, Molly Haggarty, who had back surgery in the off-season. She is back with the team, goes through warm-ups, etc, but is not playing. At the start of the year, she *might* have been "unable" to play, but she is clearly able now though not at her normal level (vertical jump, etc.). She is taking a red-shirt year. You're saying that because she's not totally disabled right now, her red-shirt this year is 'by choice' and not 'medical'? How does one decide the definition of "able to play"?
    You determine it by whether or not the doctors diagnose that you are able to play. I suppose that if you can find doctors who are willing to risk their medical licenses by deliberately misdiagnosing players as unable to play, and you trust that sort of doctor with the care of your athletes, you could probably get away with it. It seems pretty risky to me for what remains a pretty unusual case. If Molly Haggarty is, indeed, cleared to play, she cannot use this season as a medical redshirt and it would be by choice.

    Second, a hypothetical starring the Lamoureux. Let's say they don't use their Olympic year to also achieve their transfer from UM to ND. Instead, they come back and play a second year at UM, and then decide to transfer, and sit out another year. Olympics + injury got Kessel a sixth year; does Olympics + transfer get the Lams a sixth year, or is 'transfer' an insufficient 'by choice' reason, so no sixth year?
    Again, look at the examples I used from wrestling, where no injury was involved at all. Those athletes took a normal, non-medical redshirt their freshman years and then took an Olympic redshirt later, and had a sixth year. The key is in the subsection I cited, 12.8.1.4. If you take an entire season off for the Olympics or certain other national team competitions, that year doesn't count as one of your five. Olympics participation is treated like military service or official religious missions, rather than a normal redshirt season. By my reading of the rule, if you could find something that qualified under 12.8.1.4 every year, you could extend your NCAA eligibility indefinitely.
    Last edited by Eeyore; 10-30-2017 at 02:13 AM.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    Can you name one other player, any sport, who got a sixth year due to being on an Olympic team?
    For women's hockey, the one that most would be familiar is Angela Ruggiero. Played 1st year and sophomore year, then she was centralized back-to-back years with Team USA, and then junior year and senior year. Six years from start to finish, two years off for Olympic duty, no injury redshirt.
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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    I have no idea if Haggarty is 'cleared to play'; I know that they talk about her still being in the process of 'rehabbing' the injury, and that her vertical isn't where it was before, etc. I guess we find out if she ever has to take another redshirt year. Let's how we never find out.

    "if you could find something that qualified under 12.8.1.4 every year, you could extend your NCAA eligibility indefinitely."

    The last sentence of 12.8.1.4.1 says it is a one-time only offer.

    (As I was sitting here, I was thinking that I was conceiving of the overall question(s) wrong; that maybe instead of thinking about it as only 'by choice' vs 'circumstances beyond control', the better construct is that plus 'olympics' as a whole third category that 'stops the clock' in a way the other two don't. If that's correct, then the Lams could have gotten what amounts to a sixth year; four competition plus 'transfer redshirt' plus 'olympics'.

    'Olympics' still strikes me as odd, though. From what I had read in the past, the basic idea behind the military or 'mormon mission' exceptions is that they aren't likely to benefit the athlete in any competitive way; you're not going to come back from your mission as an improved basketball player, if anything the opposite is more likely. But that is almost certainly not the case with 'olympics'. You are almost certainly going to come back improved athletically. )

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by ARM View Post
    For women's hockey, the one that most would be familiar is Angela Ruggiero. Played 1st year and sophomore year, then she was centralized back-to-back years with Team USA, and then junior year and senior year. Six years from start to finish, two years off for Olympic duty, no injury redshirt.
    Well, as you're typing that, I'm pointing out that the NCAA rule/exception says it can only be used to extend the 'window' one time for one year. So that changed along the way? Or Ruggiero's two years were one 'by choice redshirt' and one 'olympic extention'?

    When I grow up, I don't want to be an NCAA compliance officer!
    Last edited by robertearle; 10-30-2017 at 02:42 AM.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    "if you could find something that qualified under 12.8.1.4 every year, you could extend your NCAA eligibility indefinitely."

    The last sentence of 12.8.1.4.1 says it is a one-time only offer.
    Yep. I was so busy trying to parse the NCAA's often incomprehensible English that I missed that line.

    (As I was sitting here, I was thinking that I was conceiving of the overall question(s) wrong; that maybe instead of thinking about it as only 'by choice' vs 'circumstances beyond control', the better construct is that plus 'olympics' as a whole third category that 'stops the clock' in a way the other two don't. If that's correct, then the Lams could have gotten what amounts to a sixth year; four competition plus 'transfer redshirt' plus 'olympics'.
    Right. The rule for the Olympics is in a different subsection than the rule for a waiver from the five year rule. The language on "beyond the control of the student athlete" are in the subsection for the latter, not in the section language that applies to both.

    'Olympics' still strikes me as odd, though. From what I had read in the past, the basic idea behind the military or 'mormon mission' exceptions is that they aren't likely to benefit the athlete in any competitive way; you're not going to come back from your mission as an improved basketball player, if anything the opposite is more likely. But that is almost certainly not the case with 'olympics'. You are almost certainly going to come back improved athletically. )
    I'm pretty sure it has to do with wanting to seem patriotic and not penalizing an athlete for playing for the national team. However, it has been subject to abuse. The link I provided to the wrestling examples is actually an article about how the NCAA had to limit the eligibility of wrestlers to get the exemption because athletes who had no chance to make the Olympic team* were taking advantage of it by declaring that they were trying to make the team, taking the year off from their NCAA program, and barely wrestling competitively at all. So they had to put in rules as to exactly who could do so:

    The Olympic redshirt criteria includes current athletes who are:

    • A past Senior World or Olympic Team member; or
    • A top eight finisher at the 2011 Senior World Team Trials; or
    • A top three finisher at the NCAA Championships and a top two finisher at the University National Championships.
    *Since, unlike women's hockey, the roster for a lot of teams isn't set until just a few weeks before the Olympics at tryouts. It actually seems kind of odd to me that you can get an Olympic redshirt for wrestling, since the Olympics and the tryouts take place so far outside of the NCAA competition period.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    When I grow up, I don't want to be an NCAA compliance officer!
    And we haven't even gotten into a discussion about the rule that a player that sits out a season because his coaches/athletic department mistakenly thought he was ineligible will not have that season count as a redshirt; it's a circumstance beyond their control.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    Well, as you're typing that, I'm pointing out that the NCAA rule/exception says it can only be used to extend the 'window' one time for one year. So that changed along the way? Or Ruggiero's two years were one 'by choice redshirt' and one 'olympic extention'?
    Student athletes start out with five years to play four seasons, so she would only require a waiver for one season is how I understand it.
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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by ARM View Post
    Student athletes start out with five years to play four seasons, so she would only require a waiver for one season is how I understand it.
    We're saying the same thing. One redshirt year to use however she saw fit, and an 'olympic year' extension of the time window, as opposed to two 'olympic years'. Small semantic difference.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    Dustin Kilgore of Kent State: Redshirted in 2007-08, competed in 2008-09, 2009-10 & 2010-11. Took an Olympic redshirt for 2011-12. Competed in 2012-13. No injury involved at any stage.

    Jake Kettler: Redshirted at Minnesota in 2009-10. Competed at Minnesota in 2010-11. Transferred to George Mason and took anOlympic redshirt in 2011-12. Competed at GMU in 2012-13, 2013-14, & 2014-15.

    Tyler Graff (Oh, hey, look, he was a Badger!): Redshirted in 2008-09. Competed in 2009-10 & 2010-11. Took an Olympic redshirt in 2011-12. Competed in 2012-13 & 2013-14
    Quote Originally Posted by ARM View Post
    For women's hockey, the one that most would be familiar is Angela Ruggiero. Played 1st year and sophomore year, then she was centralized back-to-back years with Team USA, and then junior year and senior year. Six years from start to finish, two years off for Olympic duty, no injury redshirt.
    Thank you both for these! I appreciate the insight. Barnes should be fine for 2022 then as long as she is indeed granted a redshirt for this season.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
    I could be wrong but I don't see Barnes, at this point, being able to add to the blue line for USA national women's team.
    even before the team was picked it was obvious the weakness, if there was going to be one, was going to be in the blue line

    I'm hoping they drop hockey from the Olympics, all it does is screw up college hockey
    Really folks, we should forgive Al Franken, that is one hot babe, how could he resist grabbin' her? .... maybe if he'd have remembered he's married?

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post

    I'm hoping they drop hockey from the Olympics, all it does is screw up college hockey
    I sympathize with what you're saying, but...

    A couple hundred people will see BC play Harvard. A couple thousand will see Wisconsin vs Minnesota.

    A couple million will see US vs Canada.

    Advertising. Recruitment of future players and fans. Etc.

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    I'm hoping they drop hockey from the Olympics, all it does is screw up college hockey
    That is an interesting idea from a college hockey centric point of view. I agree it does screw it up. The question is if it was dropped from the Olympics would those high end athletes have anything to strive for other than 4 years of free college? Would they get into another Olympic sport early on and not play hockey at all?
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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    A couple hundred people will see bc play Harvard. A couple thousand will see Wisconsin vs Minnesota.
    Nice...

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    Re: 2018 USA Olympic Women's Hockey Team

    Quote Originally Posted by robertearle View Post
    I sympathize with what you're saying, but...

    A couple hundred people will see BC play Harvard. A couple thousand will see Wisconsin vs Minnesota.

    A couple million will see US vs Canada.

    Advertising. Recruitment of future players and fans. Etc.
    Millions of people watch synchronized swimming and water polo, what is your point?
    Somebody is going to get cut, big deal I suppose, there are a lot more serious things in the world than which hockey princess gets an Olympic medal and which one has to watch her get presented with it.
    And failure builds character, right?
    If it builds character why do the US and Canada put so much into winning gold? The Canadians I can understand, if it werenít for hockey nobody would know they existed. But why the US, itís not like the country as whole gives a **** about hockey, especially womenís hockey.
    In the end the best players on the best teams get to take a year off for advanced training then return the following year to compete against younger less experienced players. It puts the whole college game out of whack.
    Really folks, we should forgive Al Franken, that is one hot babe, how could he resist grabbin' her? .... maybe if he'd have remembered he's married?

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