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Thread: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

  1. #361
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Actually I found a Grand Forks Herald article written 2 and-a-half weeks later in which it was reported that NDSU would only face a $400 thousand/year budget shortfall due to the state funding cuts. The article also states that no sports would be cut to balance NDSU's $22 million athletic budget. That is far different from UND's response of cutting over $2 million and 3 sports from their $26 million budget.
    Key detail:
    NDSU was already running a very lean, 16 sport, budget. (As a side note, you should take a peek into their Title IX standing. They're one of the few using "Third Prong" rather than "First Prong" for equity.) And I stand by my prior statements that there's more to come on NDSU's budgets soon enough. It'll come about May 15, after NDSU finals week and the students are gone. It's their standard MO and the Fargo media gives them a pass.

    In these moves, UND went down to 16 sports, like NDSU. (Well, 17, but men's golf is all but dead.)

    The two (NDSU and UND) budgets align fairly well now. And yet they don't look anything alike in how they report. If you dig up NDSU's FY16 NCAA budget reporting you'll see that they apply required "donations" to the sport that season tickets were bought for. Their individual sports look less red; their unallocated line item is very small.

    And there's a detail you must also consider: Notice they all stop and/or hold firm at 16 sponsored sports. That's the number for DI FBS. That's the dream for most Midwest schools that play football (see: UxDs, xDSUs, Montana, Montana State, et al) right now at FCS. Now, clearly, they'll never be 'bama or Clemson, but, they could well play at the SunBelt or MAC level given the right circumstance. And, that right circumstance just may be forming up as the motion continues in Midwest conference alignments*. And before you say FBS is more expensive, actually no, it's not. Any sort of conference bowl game alignment (even MAC and Belt have those) is a better payday than the FCS playoffs.


    *It looks like the MVC is poaching the OVC and the Horizon for teams. This will probably affect the Summit as the Horizon will probably look there for new members.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-29-2017 at 08:08 PM.
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  2. #362
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    A few more thoughts now that you've brought in NDSU: It's a $400k cut per year they face. That's still 20% of the $2 million of state funds subsidizing their programs. On, as you say, a $22 million budget.

    Meanwhile, UND has to cut $1.3 million (20%). It would logically follow UND is using $6.5 million to subsidize their $26 million budget.

    Now as you've noted UND cut out more than the $1.3M. Using FY16 and cutting baseball, M/W S&D, and WIH, they nominally cut out $4M. And it's $4 million less of state monies into athletics.

    So NDSU was using $2M and UND about $6.5M by these calcs. But now UND has cut out about $4M of subsidized play to be more like NDSU.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    I didn't; however, it was brought up so I responded.
    I honestly don't care who "started it." There was an extended exchange involving multiple posters, of varying viewpoints, that seemed to treat "fewest scholarships lost" as the ultimate, determinative factor. I simply disagree with putting so much weight on that one variable.

    The relevant factor, the factor, is that the state is cutting 20+% from budgets and the state mandates balanced budgets.
    Which is a financial disaster, no question about it. We differ on whether one specific program should have been cut. I specifically disagree with the position (not necessarily yours) that UND had "no choice" but to cut Women's Hockey. But no matter what decisions were made, clearly there was going to be real pain and innocent victims.

    UND made a choice. They went with core sports (that just won Big Sky Championships this year in FB, MBB, WBB, and VB). They went with lower cost per athlete sports. They went with sports that have more local following and game attendance*. Was it the right choice? Time will answer that. Right now the numbers say it was.


    *Yeah, I said it. UND draws more for a weeknight volleyball match than a Friday night WIH game.
    Actually time won't tell. Assuming the decision is permanent, we'll never know what Women's Hockey at UND might have achieved. My belief is that there was a lot of upside potential there. My guess is that a single national title would have done wonders for attendance. For me, current attendance is just another variable that should be treated as relevant but not dispositive.

    Maybe you'll find this next point conciliatory; maybe you won't. But here goes. No doubt that competing for Big Sky titles is important to the players and fans involved, and should be. Still, for better or worse, such titles are a matter a regional significance only. But let's assume that the UND decision makers really took a careful look, and made a conscious, eyes wide open decision that competing for Big Sky titles was more important than anything Women's Hockey might achieve. If that's really the case, they had every right to make the decision they did. It's up to UND to determine the core mission and core objectives of its Athletics program.

    What I would ask is that we stop pretending that the decision to cut Women's Hockey at UND was about saving a handful of scholarships; or about current Volleyball attendance. It was a major, long-term policy decision -- which our sport lost.

  4. #364
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Undeniably UND made a long term policy decision.

    The leadership decided that goals of making the NCAA M/W BB tournaments and the NCAA WVB tournament were higher priority and more valuable. They appear to be in full pursuit of continued NCAA FCS playoff appearances with a championship end goal which is again believed to be more valuable. They have the experience of making all those NCAA tournaments (save WBB) to base their analyses on. That's what Big Sky (and soon Summit) titles get you: NCAA tournament entry. And into NCAA DI tournaments with much larger and broader exposure. Thus, clearly, UND's leadership and the college women's hockey world have beliefs that do not align at this time.

    A follow-up on NDSU. The ND Legislature went "sine die" late last week. Final numbers are out. It's an 18% cut for NDSU. But, as the Fargo Forum says, " ... no details on impact yet". Indeed, but wait for it. However, NDSU will not go below 16 sponsored sports. That I will bet on (and I'm cheap; I don't bet).
    http://www.inforum.com/news/4258637-...ils-impact-yet

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by pgb-ohio View Post
    we'll never know what Women's Hockey at UND might have achieved. My belief is that there was a lot of upside potential there. My guess is that a single national title would have done wonders for attendance.
    really? I guess you are free to believe as you want, but facts suggest otherwise. There has been zero increase in attendance at U of MN hockey since 2013 despite winning two more NCAA titles. In fact, it may have slid slightly since the streak was ended.

    Even in the State of Hockey (sic) volleyball is a much more popular sport. The U of MN averaged just under 5000 fans a game, IOW, about three times as many fans a game than hockey. The HS state tournament draws many more fans to volleyball than hockey.

    Volleyball has potential that hockey doesn't, the sport has no competition, except from HS. Hockey has competition from the pros & men.

    There were 4 volleyball athletes from ND this year, hockey only had 1.
    Volleyball won their conference tournament and qualified for NCAA. Hockey did not.

    You'd think there would be some spillover from the men, people who just can't get enough, it didn't happen
    end of story
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Why do you folks think Baker Donelson was hired by UND during this process?

    A top Title IX firm in the US was not retained visit North Dakota in March to comment on the weather.

    When I heard they'd been retained, I knew something big was going to churn.


    Others? They whistled past the graveyard.
    They weren't there to count trees?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Any sort of conference bowl game alignment (even MAC and Belt have those) is a better payday than the FCS playoffs.
    Most schools lose money on accepting a minor bowl bid.

    Schools are forced to buy a percentage of the bowl game tickets, many of which they cannot unload to their fans.

    There's been a number of articles written recently on the economic model for most of the bowl games outside of the major ones (the BCS ones and a few others). And it's not pretty.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    A good summary of the situation, well worth reading.

    North Dakota's decision to drop women's hockey a major blow to the sport
    http://www.startribune.com/north-dak...ort/420960063/
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  9. #369
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by D2D View Post
    A good summary of the situation, well worth reading.

    North Dakota's decision to drop women's hockey a major blow to the sport
    http://www.startribune.com/north-dak...ort/420960063/
    Thanks for the link.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Maybe Alabama should start a team if they can afford this:

    @ByBerkowitz: Saban's $11.125 million for 2017 season is more than the amount that 27 D-I public schools spent on their entire athletics programs in FY15

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    They weren't there to count trees?
    That's a heck of a per tree retainer fee.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Jaslow View Post
    Most schools lose money on accepting a minor bowl bid.

    Schools are forced to buy a percentage of the bowl game tickets, many of which they cannot unload to their fans.

    There's been a number of articles written recently on the economic model for most of the bowl games outside of the major ones (the BCS ones and a few others). And it's not pretty.
    All true.
    But FCS schools lose even more.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    North Dakota's elimination of women's hockey could cost UMD and other WCHA schools in the long run
    http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/spo...r-wcha-schools

    Several interesting things here including the reported cost of womens hockey for each of the WCHA schools

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by ne7minder View Post
    North Dakota's elimination of women's hockey could cost UMD and other WCHA schools in the long run
    http://www.duluthnewstribune.com/spo...r-wcha-schools

    Several interesting things here including the reported cost of womens hockey for each of the WCHA schools
    Yeah, interesting apart from some meaningless comments from Berlo.

    What causes UW to spend so much more than everyone else?

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbeard View Post
    ....

    What causes UW to spend so much more than everyone else?
    And look what they received from their spending.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbeard View Post
    Yeah, interesting apart from some meaningless comments from Berlo.

    What causes UW to spend so much more than everyone else?
    I find it interesting that the bottom three teams in the WCHA are the three teams that spend the least amount in the league. What is it that the bottom three are saving money on? Trainers? Better Equipment? Old Buses? Better Food? Coaches on more recruiting trips? Charter Airplane flights? Maybe the other teams have the open checkbook and win at all cost? In this case the facts show you get what you pay for. Lets make the league great again

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by vicb View Post
    And look what they received from their spending.
    More titles than Clarkson.....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackbeard View Post
    Yeah, interesting apart from some meaningless comments from Berlo.

    What causes UW to spend so much more than everyone else?
    How do they travel vs rest of WCHA? Finding Potsdam can be an expensive undertaking.

    Does Badger Mark make more than the rest of the WCHA?

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    How do they travel vs rest of WCHA? Finding Potsdam can be an expensive undertaking.

    Does Badger Mark make more than the rest of the WCHA?
    Badger Mark makes $272,222 in salary. In 2015 Rodent Frosty made $220,115.

    The disparity between UW's and UM's is shocking. I can't believe UM is so cheap with women's hockey.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy A View Post
    The disparity between UW's and UM's is shocking. I can't believe UM is so cheap with women's hockey.
    ..teehee

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