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Thread: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

  1. #281
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
    What if UM, UMD, or Wisconsin were willing to donate a couple of their championchips to help your nice guy gesture?
    UM, UMD, or UW donating those to UND. Not happenin'.
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  2. #282
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    ... ticket sales ....
    Sean, I don't know why you're locked into ticket sales. It's not a winning argument.

    UND WIH had minimal, nominal, ticket sales. They'd give tickets away to get anyone to show up. Because I'm a Champions Club member (for other season tickets) I could get free stubs at the box office any time I'd want. And I'd have my choice of 11,000+ open seats.

    The whole rink was open seating. There'd maybe be a couple hundred people showing up.

    Ponder that 209 people showed up for a WWCHA first round series game (OSU@UND) last month. 209. Announced, recorded attendance. That doesn't pay the staff to have the arena open for a public event much less power on the lights and the compressors.

    UND WBB and UND Volleyball outdraw UND WIH. And with smaller losses on the balance sheet.
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  3. #283
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    To have the same required (remember: state mandated) budget cuts as cutting just WIH ($2.13M expense, $1.91M net loss) UND would have had to cut ...

    Women's soccer
    Women's softball
    Men's indoor track
    Women's indoor track
    Men's outdoor track
    Women's outdoor track
    Men's cross country
    Women's cross country

    This list totals $2.38M expense, $2.18M net loss.

    Oh, because you want to know about people affected:

    WIH: 25 players

    Soccer: 30 players
    Softball: 23 players
    WITrack: 41 players
    Just those three is 94.

    25 or 94. Roughly four times the impacted people.

    Your call.
    I read that the mandated budget cuts were $1.3 million, not the $1.9 million the women's hockey team lost. So, instead of cutting your 8 sports what about cutting women's volleyball? When added to the men's and women's swimming & diving it totals $2.05 million expenses, $1.75 net loss, more than the mandated cuts.
    women's volleyball - $1,058,483 expenses, $892,516 loss
    men's swimming & diving - $319,027 expenses, $266,781 loss
    women's swimming & diving - $672,275 expenses, $589,140 loss

    Oh, because you want to know about people affected:
    women's volleyball: 15 players
    15 or 25. Just 60% of the impacted players.

    But what about the need to have extra money available for the required scholarships of the Summit League sports? Well, the school could wait and hope that the state's finances improve in the next few years and no further sports teams would need to be cut instead of over cutting now.

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  4. #284
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    UND is moving to the Summit League and Missouri Valley Football Conference in 2018 and 2020 to save on travel expenses (again, budget).

    Those leagues also mandate higher levels of spending on scholarships in various sports than the Big Sky required.

    And, UND was out of balance regarding Title IX (unfair toward the men) both before and after dropping baseball.

    UND dropped roughly $3.1 million of expense, $2.9 million of red ink, in dropping WIH, M/W S&D.

    However, it will be reinvesting portions of that back into (a) balancing Title IX, and (b) meeting minimums required by the Summit.

    The budget model as it existed was unsustainable and was not shaped for future requirements.

    A rebalancing and realigning had to happen.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017 at 11:32 AM.
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  5. #285
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Well, the school could wait and hope that the state's finances improve in the next few years and no further sports teams would need to be cut instead of over cutting now.
    You know the state's finances will be better in the future. You know that.
    (You can hope in one hand and crap in the other. Tell me which is fuller at the end of the day.)

    You can not operate a budget on "hope". Not in a state that requires a balanced state budget.

    And hope don't pay the bills.



    And regarding "overcutting". Bologna.

    A year ago UND was sponsoring 21 NCAA DI sports. Dropping baseball made 20. These moves made 17. (MGolf is on life suport: 16.) Most other similarly sized schools are running 16 sports, or they are starving programs just to claim they have them. (Mo State just dropped sports and cut the remainders' budgets 7-12%. That's not a formula for success.)

    UND was supporting too much and had to realign for the success of the general overall Athletics department.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017 at 11:33 AM.
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  6. #286
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Let me tell you a story. Choose to believe it or not. (Phil Harmeson told it to me over coffee one day.)

    A while back when Phil Harmeson was acting AD and the decision to move to DI was made, Phil called in all the coaches from the 21 sports. (Harmeson was then a professor in the business school, a lawyer, and then president Kupchella's chief of staff. The man knew budgets and budgeting across the campus.)

    He was frank with them: He told them that budgets at UND would not sustain 21 sports and that they should look around the room because in about five years about five sports would be gone to the budget ax. He said, told them, a university of UND's size can not support 21 DI sports.

    That Harmeson-led meeting was roughly ten years ago.

    UND has gotten by this long because of the Bakken (oil) boom in the state and the Legislature was feeling flush with cash. State monies to UND ramped way up.

    Money from the State is now returning to the mean trendline from pre-Bakken.

    Harmeson's realities are here.


    Anyone who's paid attention to UND Athletics for the last 20 years, not just on the field, but the budgets, saw this coming and knew it had to happen.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017 at 01:22 PM.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    And, UND was out of balance regarding Title IX (unfair toward the men) both before and after dropping baseball..
    I am extremely skeptical that this was the case. There is much, much more to determining Title IX compliance than just the relative number of athletic scholarships for men and women. It's very difficult for a school that runs a Division 1 football program to be out of compliance with Title IX to the detriment of the male athletes.

    It is also important to remember that, from a legal perspective, ticket sales and overall revenues for a sport entirely irrelevant to Title IX compliance. The NCAA and individual schools have repeatedly argued in federal courts that revenue generation is not a significant consideration in how they run their athletic departments. As ridiculous as that argument is on its face, multiple federal judges have accepted it. A consequence of that is that schools now cannot argue that the revenue generated by a men's sport justifies its survival.

  8. #288
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by sean pickett View Post
    ... What about cutting women's volleyball?
    Women's volleyball - $1,058,483 expenses, $892,516 loss
    WIH:
    Expense: $2.132M
    Net Loss: $1.92M
    Participants: 25

    WVB:
    Expense: $1.058M
    Net Loss: $0.893M
    Participants: 15

    Loss per WIH player: $76,800.
    Loss per WVB player: $59,500.

    Volleyball loses less money per player and less overall.
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  9. #289
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    I am extremely skeptical that this was the case. There is much, much more to determining Title IX compliance than just the relative number of athletic scholarships for men and women. It's very difficult for a school that runs a Division 1 football program to be out of compliance with Title IX to the detriment of the male athletes.

    It is also important to remember that, from a legal perspective, ticket sales and overall revenues for a sport entirely irrelevant to Title IX compliance. The NCAA and individual schools have repeatedly argued in federal courts that revenue generation is not a significant consideration in how they run their athletic departments. As ridiculous as that argument is on its face, multiple federal judges have accepted it. A consequence of that is that schools now cannot argue that the revenue generated by a men's sport justifies its survival.
    Using the NCAA FY14, FY15, and FY16 data:

    UND has never been below 53.8% male in general student body.

    UND male athletes have never received above 50.2% of equivalencies (scholarships) nor have male athletes received above 50.9% of overall equivalency dollars nor have ever more than 51.8% of male athletes received an equivalency.

    Additionally, males have never been above 53% of the total athlete population (duplicated or unduplicated athlete counting).

    UND male athletes have been shorted by slots, scholarships, and dollars.


    Title IX is not about women; Title IX is about gender equity, and male is a gender too.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017 at 12:20 PM.
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  10. #290
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Why do you folks think Baker Donelson was hired by UND during this process?

    A top Title IX firm in the US was not retained visit North Dakota in March to comment on the weather.

    When I heard they'd been retained, I knew something big was going to churn.


    Others? They whistled past the graveyard.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    UM, UMD, or UW donating those to UND. Not happenin'.
    NSS...My sarcastic question was as genuine as your offer.
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  12. #292
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by FiveHoleFrenzy View Post
    NSS...My sarcastic question was as genuine as your offer.
    But my offer was real. Of course, as with any offer or contract, it was written in my favor to make the point:

    UND WIH has never won any conference or national championship.
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  13. #293
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    In the Player's Tribune article Amy Menke says:

    ... our team had been making small budget adjustments all season. Cheaper travel, less meals, ...
    So, you knew something was up because you'd been making adjustments.
    No, wait, you were completely surprised, blindsided, about budget issues.

    So. Which is it.


    PS - It's "fewer meals", not "less meals".
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Using the NCAA FY14, FY15, and FY16 data:

    UND has never been below 53.8% male in general student body.

    UND male athletes have never received above 50.2% of equivalencies (scholarships) nor have male athletes received above 50.9% of overall equivalency dollars nor have ever more than 51.8% of male athletes received an equivalency.

    Additionally, males have never been above 53% of the total athlete population (duplicated or unduplicated athlete counting).

    UND male athletes have been shorted by slots, scholarships, and dollars.


    Title IX is not about women; Title IX is about gender equity, and male is a gender too.
    Clearly, you know absolutely nothing about how Title IX is actually applied. Go away, and come back once you've done some homework.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    But my offer was real. Of course, as with any offer or contract, it was written in my favor to make the point:

    UND WIH has never won any conference or national championship.
    I am asking this question in all seriousness, lets say the UND Whockey had the Clarkson Whockey resume: 2 National Championships, 3 Frozen 4's, 6 NC$$ Tourney appearances, 1 League Post Season Championship, 3 League Regular Season Championships however was losing (per UND stats) $1.9 Million/yr. Do you think or should all these championships have caused the program to be spared from the AX???
    Last edited by vicb; 04-22-2017 at 10:25 AM.
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  16. #296
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    Clearly, you know absolutely nothing about how Title IX is actually applied. Go away, and come back once you've done some homework.
    I know that Baker Donelson signed off on all of UND's moves before they did them.

    Do you know more about Title IX than Baker Donelson?

    And I also know that if the number I quoted are misaligned that's what Title IX lawyers call "low hanging fruit".
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-22-2017 at 10:38 AM.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by vicb View Post
    I am asking this question in all seriousness, lets say the UND Whockey had the Clarkson Whockey resume: 2 National Championships, 3 Frozen 4's, 6 NC$$ Tourney appearances, 1 League Post Season Championship, 3 League Regular Season Championships however was losing (per UND stats) $1.9 Million/yr. Do you think or should all these championships have caused the program to be spared from the AX???
    I believe that level of performance would've positively impacted UND WIH's balance sheet and how they measured in comparisons would've looked far better.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    US OCR is going to take a look.

    http://www.grandforksherald.com/spor...-ix-compliance


    Baker Donelson's going to earn their fees.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    I know that Baker Donelson signed off on all of UND's moves before they did them.

    Do you know more about Title IX than Baker Donelson?

    And I also know that if the number I quoted are misaligned that's what Title IX lawyers call "low hanging fruit".
    Again, you don't know the subject at all. Aside from the fact that Title IX compliance depends upon many more factors than just raw scholarship numbers, the disparity you mention is well within the range of what is considered to be in compliance.

    You're also moving the goalposts. Your original claim was that UND is not in compliance because it is shortchanging male athletes. Weasely and ignorant is no way to go through life, son.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    Again, you don't know the subject at all. Aside from the fact that Title IX compliance depends upon many more factors than just raw scholarship numbers, the disparity you mention is well within the range of what is considered to be in compliance.

    You're also moving the goalposts. Your original claim was that UND is not in compliance because it is shortchanging male athletes. Weasely and ignorant is no way to go through life, son.
    The minute you resort to feeble attempts at condescension you've lost.

    But, yes, Title IX is far more than scholarship numbers. That's why one hires BD to review everything before it's rolled out. BD makes sure what you're doing now is aligned, because you know the challenge will come.

    And are you sure those numbers would be considered aligned given other factors, say, like in FY17 UND no longer sponsors baseball. UND had to do something after eliminating baseball. Participation numbers are misaligned.

    And you don't know what I know.
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