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Thread: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

  1. #241
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Good questions. I have read on Wikipedia Ralph Engelstad Arena is owned by the Engelstad Family Foundation, but UND called the arena a gift in an article about a $20 million donation to the school by the foundation, which implies the arena is owned by the university. However, the school reported expenses of just over $2.2 million in 2015 and $1.46 million (men's and women's hockey combined) in 2016 in the Debt Services/Leases category (debt service payments (principal and interest, including internal loan programs), leases and rental fees for athletics facilities for the reporting year regardless of entity paying (athletics, institution or other)) of their NCAA financial reports and not the Direct Overhead category (overhead and administrative expenses paid by or charged directly to athletics including: administrative/overhead fees charged by the institution to athletics, facilities maintenance, security, risk management, utilities, equipment repair, telephone, other administrative expenses). Before 2015 the two categories were combined, so the costs could have been all maintenance, but I think that unlikely based on the 2015 & 2016 reports. For what itís worth, I also checked to see about basketball and volleyball payments for using the Betty and for 2010, í11 & í12 the school paid an average of about $100 thousand per year. Starting in 2013 there have been no payments made for either sport, just to men's hockey in 2013, 14 & 15 and both men's and women's hockey in 2016. Also, 2014 & 15 are the two years that men's hockey paid over $2 million in Debt Services/Leases, with 2013 virtually free and the other years in the $1.46 to $1.73 million range. You can see the numbers yourself, either on my NCAA Financials workbook (which currently only has North Dakota information) or directly from the NCAA reports: 2010-14 (click on download this institution's documents and select a year), 2015 & 2016.

    Sean
    Sean, I doubt Brad's recent blog post was directed specifically at you because there is a lot of stuff floating around out there about North Dakota hockey right now, but his post does perhaps shed some light on the puzzling notion that the UND men's hockey program might be losing money.

    http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=106642
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  2. #242
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    Sean, I doubt Brad's recent blog post was directed specifically at you because there is a lot of stuff floating around out there about North Dakota hockey right now, but his post does perhaps shed some light on the puzzling notion that the UND men's hockey program might be losing money.

    http://undhockey.areavoices.com/?p=106642
    Thanks for the link. I have previously said trying to compare schools is a fools errand, even though I am doing so. At least he appears to explain the high and fluctuating usage cost of the arena.

    Sean

    P.S. It's also UND's choice to show losses for the men's program, which is something I have no control over.
    Last edited by Sean Pickett; 04-18-2017 at 10:07 AM.
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  3. #243
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Thanks for the link. I have previously said trying to compare schools is a fools errand, even though I am doing so. At least he appears to explain the high and fluctuating usage cost of the arena.

    Sean
    I think it would be interesting to someday sit down and read all the documents pertaining to the arena and it's relationship to UND. If you look at the Grand Forks County GIS map, it appears the parcel of land and buildings are still owned by the University. You'll also see links to various documents, agreements and leases. I haven't signed up for online access, but I've always assumed it is some sort of shell game to permit the financial figures to show precisely what the University wants them to show.

    http://www.co.grand-forks.nd.us/bypr...44313800001000
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  4. #244
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    I think it would be interesting to someday sit down and read all the documents pertaining to the arena and it's relationship to UND. If you look at the Grand Forks County GIS map, it appears the parcel of land and buildings are still owned by the University. You'll also see links to various documents, agreements and leases. I haven't signed up for online access, but I've always assumed it is some sort of shell game to permit the financial figures to show precisely what the University wants them to show.

    http://www.co.grand-forks.nd.us/bypr...44313800001000
    Thanks for the additional information about the land. I know that in New York there are many such land-lease arrangements. Of course that can lead to some interesting problems as this article in The New York Times reports.

    Sean
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    Sean, I doubt Brad's recent blog post was directed specifically at you...
    I don't know, the more I think about it the more I think it might be directed at me. Who else has been saying UND men's hockey has been losing money?

    Sean
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    I don't know, the more I think about it the more I think it might be directed at me. Who else has been saying UND men's hockey has been losing money?

    Sean
    I think people have thrown it about over on SiouxSports.com, but honestly I haven't been following the women's discussion that closely over there.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    So, I looked into the amount UND has paid to use the Ralph and Brad appears to be correct: the school appears to be paying a percentage of all ticket sales for all sports that use both it and the Betty. The 7 year average percentage? Almost fifty percent (49.8%) of all ticket sales for men's and women's hockey and basketball and women's volleyball from 2010-16 have been paid to the arena. For 2010 & 2011 the school reported the same percentage (52.1% and 52.7%) for all five sports*, but in 2012 the percentages changed slightly for basketball and dropped by almost half for women's hockey. Then in 2013 the percentages changed drastically, with basketball and volleyball paying nothing for 2013, '14 & '15, women's hockey paying 45.5% in 2013 and nothing in '14 & '15 and men's hockey paying just 0.9% in 2013, before paying 73.1% in 2014 & 61.8% in 2015. In 2016 men's hockey paid only 38.9% of ticket sales, but women's hockey (1574.4% of ticket sales), basketball (164.2% of men's and 169.9% of women's ticket sales) and women's volleyball (348.4% of ticket sales) all took huge facilities lease hits to their budgets. The basketball charges appear to cover their shortfalls for 2013-15, but the charges to women's hockey and volleyball more than covered their shortfalls. Indeed, it appears that the extra amounts that both paid were to cover the remaining shortfall for men's hockey. So, the 2016 women's hockey expense appears to be about $350 thousand higher than it should be, even including its previous shortfall owed to the arena. That comes to about 18% of the women's deficit for 2016: not enough to close the gap, but it certainly reduces it. If you're interested I created a quick spreadsheet showing ticket sales, facilities costs and percentage of ticket sales for 2010-16 for each of the five sports.

    Sean

    * women's volleyball for 2011 was 52.753%, which rounded up to 52.8% on the spreadsheet
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey


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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeydad4two View Post
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeydad4two View Post
    Very well written. It's hard to believe that it was handled SO incredibly poorly by the administration. There are grade schools that do a better job of communicating with students than UND did. They could have gave them a heads up months ago so the players could transition more easily, could they not have?
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  11. #251
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    The leak started with Todd Mileski, the Badger beat writer, on Twitter.

    UND had to tell the WWCHA. Somehow Mileski found out about a conversation between UND and the league office.

    Want to blame someone for breaking the news to the teams before the meeting called by UND? Look there.
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  12. #252
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    The North Dakota legislature is cutting budgets across ALL STATE AGENCIES by 20-25%. You read that correctly.

    Ag and oil prices are way down and these are tax revenues. There's less economic activity in the state right now. There's not enough money coming in to Bismarck.

    So, what do you cut?

    The medical school or a hockey team?
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-20-2017 at 02:59 PM.
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  13. #253
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    UND men's hockey pays the whole bill for use of REA. All of it.

    MBB, WBB, VB, WIH, and soccer (locker rooms) also use the facility, but UND MIH pays the usage costs. All of them. Look at the 2015 NCAA financials report for UND. It's there.

    In FY16 that changed. WIH started paying about 1/3 the costs.


    EDIT: I'm wrong. WIH paid 18% of REA costs in FY16, not the 33% I say above.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017 at 09:33 AM.
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  14. #254
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Last spring, UND cut baseball.

    Men's golf was cut but got two years to raise and endowment to self-sustain. It's not expected to survive.

    Men's and women's S&D were cut along with WIH.

    And before all of that, UND (54% men) was only 50/50 regarding athletic roster spots and scholarship dollars given.

    So, yes, UND was ripe for a Title IX suit before all this ... from men.
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  15. #255
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    The way UND notes money on the NCAA reporting form is such that tickets are shown as team revenues.

    However, Champions Club memberships you must hold to buy tickets are not allocated by sport.

    Thus the $1300 I pay to Champions Club for the right to buy four season tickets (about $400 per) to MIH goes to "unallocated".

    The Champions Club fees a FB fan pays for the right to buy FB season tickets goes "unallocated". The ticket prices goes to "FB".
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  16. #256
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Pres. Kennedy of UND says it would take a $60 million endowment to sustain WIH.

    You want to live off the interest of an endowment, not touching the principal.

    The normal working number these days for safe interest on investments is 4%.

    4% of $60 million is $2.4 million annually.

    That's nominally what UND WIH expenses were in FY 16.

    Stuff costs money.


    Now, if you happen to have $60 million to invest in UND WIH, please make the check payable to "The UND Foundation's Women's Hockey Endowment".
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  17. #257
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Regarding announcing this to teams:

    Idalski admitted to the GF Herald he suspected this was happening but didn't prepare his team. (I'll leave that hang right there.)

    Next, say AD Faison had told Idalski, "Uh, no recruit visits next week" or "No practices next week" what would've that caused? That would've been far worse.

    The problem is the news cycle is always ahead of the news releases in today's Twitter-verse.


    UND called the teams in for a meeting to tell them and had a press conference scheduled an hour later. What else can they do?


    UND had to meet contractual obligations to the leagues and tell them.

    If there's a problem here, it's that the WWCHA league offices leaked like a stuck pig to Todd Mileski and his Twitter account.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-20-2017 at 03:10 PM.
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  18. #258
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    If you're interested I created a quick spreadsheet showing ticket sales, facilities costs and percentage of ticket sales for 2010-16 for each of the five sports.
    Sean,

    Commendable work; however, here's what you really need to look at.

    FY15: https://und.edu/president/_files/doc...eport-2015.pdf
    FY16: http://www.undsports.com/fls/13500/A...B_OEM_ID=13500

    In the FY16 report you'll find UND WIH had $2,132,160 of expenses with $212,180 of revenue. Net loss: $1,919,980.

    Now, before the "yahbuts" show up regarding other UND sports and their net, again, remember: Champions Club "donations" are not allocated by sport. Those revenues are listed under "not allocated" so MIH, FB, MBB, and WBB revenues only show season tickets. The club "donations" to buy those season tickets are "not allocated". That's why "not allocated" revenue is about $17 million*.

    There was no Champions Club donation required for WIH tickets. There were always about 11000 available per home game.


    *Yes, that number includes other items like university funds and student fees.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-20-2017 at 03:47 PM.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    The leak started with Todd Mileski, the Badger beat writer, on Twitter.

    UND had to tell the WWCHA. Somehow Mileski found out about a conversation between UND and the league office.

    Want to blame someone for breaking the news to the teams before the meeting called by UND? Look there.
    I had not considered the thought that the leaking of info caught UND off guard. That being said, in the world we live in, they should have told the players first, then the wwcha. That would have been a better look.
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  20. #260
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    To have the same required (remember: state mandated) budget cuts as cutting just WIH ($2.13M expense, $1.91M net loss) UND would have had to cut ...

    Women's soccer
    Women's softball
    Men's indoor track
    Women's indoor track
    Men's outdoor track
    Women's outdoor track
    Men's cross country
    Women's cross country

    This list totals $2.38M expense, $2.18M net loss.

    Oh, because you want to know about people affected:

    WIH: 25 players

    Soccer: 30 players
    Softball: 23 players
    WITrack: 41 players
    Just those three is 94.

    25 or 94. Roughly four times the impacted people.

    Your call.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-20-2017 at 03:53 PM.
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