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Thread: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

  1. #401
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Jaslow View Post
    There is a difference between cost of an education and what it actually costs a school to let a student go for free.

    Marry a Cost Accountant, and you'll understand. LOL
    I have a masters of accountancy, and I repeat that I don't understand what your assumption is based upon. Rather than playing silly semantic games over the phrase "cost of an education" and whether I meant the price a student pays or, as should have been pretty obvious from the context, what it costs the school to provide it, why don't you lay them out?
    Last edited by Eeyore; 06-01-2017 at 08:51 AM.

  2. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    I have a masters of accountancy, and I repeat that I don't understand what your assumption is based upon. Rather than playing silly semantic games over the phrase "cost of an education" and whether I meant the price a student pays or, as should have been pretty obvious from the context, what it costs the school to provide it, why don't you lay them out?
    I already agreed with you that it still costs the school some money to allow a student to attend for free.

    However, it doesn't cost the school the same amount of money that the student would have had to pay. Of course, the school does lose the potential revenue, but it doesn't cost the school in direct costs on a dollar by dollar ratio.

    That's all I'm saying. Plus, a Cost Accountant will tell you that those costs associated with lost revenue will be built into the amount they charge other students to attend the school. Ergo, it doesn't cost the school the exact amount of the scholarship they are giving away. Most of it, they get back anyway by charging other students more.

    It's like if a car company gives away a car for free for marketing purposes. If the car sells for $20,000 at the dealership, it doesn't mean the company lost $20,000 for giving that car away. The car may have cost $10,000 in real costs (design, labor, parts). The rest of the amount for the car comes in marketing, profits, sales commissions and the like. Sure, the company is going to write off $20,000 for giving that car away, but they did not lose $20,000 in real money.

  3. #403
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Good article on the life and death of UND women's hockey.
    http://www.grandforksherald.com/spor...-womens-hockey

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by icehawk View Post
    Good article on the life and death of UND women's hockey.
    http://www.grandforksherald.com/spor...-womens-hockey
    Well written and informative. And more than a little heartbreaking. Definitely some things to reflect on. Thanks for posting.

    On the heartbreaking side, the article reports that all of the Women's Hockey artifacts were removed from the Ralph with ruthless efficiency. In fairness, Schlossman also mentions that some of the items may reappear later in a concourse display. Even so, this action added insult to the injury experienced by the outgoing athletes, coaches and staff.

    Was it really necessary to "cleanse" the arena of Women's Hockey history on an ASAP basis? Doesn't this strongly suggest that there was more involved here than mere cost-cutting? Maybe the only ulterior motive was embarrassment/regret. Maybe. But to me this action was quite disrespectful to all of those associated with the lost program. I can understand the need for some remodeling to reflect the new reality. But why the rush? Why not create the historical concourse exhibit at the same time as removing the old display? And wouldn't it have been better to complete this work in an unrushed manner, perhaps over the summer?

    That said, the details of the transition will fade over time. Ultimately the more important facts to keep alive are the program's accomplishments -- and Schlossman recounts them well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pgb-ohio View Post
    On the heartbreaking side, the article reports that all of the Women's Hockey artifacts were removed from the Ralph with ruthless efficiency.
    Wow. Niagara kept a display for women's hockey in their arena even after dropping the sport.

  6. #406
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Russell Jaslow View Post
    Wow. Niagara kept a display for women's hockey in their arena even after dropping the sport.
    Given my visits to the place I believe if you are not hoisting the Stanley Cup you are not going to get space. They have these giant floor to ceiling "big heads" of former "students" hoisting the Cup in several places but all the national championships grouped in a tiny area. Seriously, if you want to be a minor league team for the NHL you should at least get paid by them. But womens hockey has no similar pull on the school so I was more surprised that they had any artifacts up in the first place.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by pgb-ohio View Post

    Was it really necessary to "cleanse" the arena of Women's Hockey history on an ASAP basis? Doesn't this strongly suggest that there was more involved here than mere cost-cutting? Maybe the only ulterior motive was embarrassment/regret. Maybe. But to me this action was quite disrespectful to all of those associated with the lost program. I can understand the need for some remodeling to reflect the new reality. But why the rush? Why not create the historical concourse exhibit at the same time as removing the old display? And wouldn't it have been better to complete this work in an unrushed manner, perhaps over the summer?
    The North Dakota fans were very careful to point out to us that UND is not a "hockey" school but a "Men's hockey school"

    Yes, thank them for me for clarifying!

  8. #408
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by ne7minder View Post
    Given my visits to the place I believe if you are not hoisting the Stanley Cup you are not going to get space. They have these giant floor to ceiling "big heads" of former "students" hoisting the Cup in several places but all the national championships grouped in a tiny area. Seriously, if you want to be a minor league team for the NHL you should at least get paid by them. But womens hockey has no similar pull on the school so I was more surprised that they had any artifacts up in the first place.
    Interesting observation. I haven't been to a game at the Ralph, so this is new information to me.

    My reaction? Mixed feelings. One thought is that arena décor will be partially driven by recruiting considerations. I would assume that "getting players to the next level" is a big part of UND's sales pitch, as it is at many schools. From that perspective, giving NHL accomplishments a prominent place makes sense.

    On the other hand, to the extent the NHL stuff greatly overshadows UND's own accomplishments, that's both strange and sad.

    I hope to make it to the Ralph someday, for many reasons. If so, I can judge for myself. Of course with the loss of UND's Women program, that's now less likely...

  9. #409
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    In the main entrance to the building is a national championship section where you can see info, pictures and etc of all of UND's national championships. It's quite the display. Certainly a better display than having 7 trophies randomly throughout the building. Addtionally, throughout the concourse are banners with the names of each All-American on them.

    Each former UND player to play in the NHL has a picture of them in an NHL game throughout the concourse. Some of those players won cups, so pictures of them winning the biggest trophy is hockey is used. To say it's focused solely on winning the cup though is ridiculous.

    The biggest displays you'll see are the massive photos of former players during their time at UND. The Karl Goehring picture alone takes up a wall that is at least 15 feet wide. They must have missed those focusing too much on the 3'x2' pictures.

    As for removing the women's hockey stuff from the locker room area, that is because the women's soccer team is moving into that area. As the article states, most of the women's memorabilia and pictures and such are located near the locker room and coaches offices. How well does recruiting for soccer work when potential students are just looking at pictures of UND women's hockey players all around the soccer area. The current stuff will be moved to a public display area that will be done well but it had to be taken down from the locker room area for soccer.
    Last edited by cF[Authentic]; 06-13-2017 at 09:22 AM.

  10. #410
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
    In the main entrance to the building is a national championship section where you can see info, pictures and etc of all of UND's national championships. It's quite the display. Certainly a better display than having 7 trophies randomly throughout the building. Addtionally, throughout the concourse are banners with the names of each All-American on them.

    Each former UND player to play in the NHL has a picture of them in an NHL game throughout the concourse. Some of those players won cups, so pictures of them winning the biggest trophy is hockey is used. To say it's focused solely on winning the cup though is ridiculous.

    The biggest displays you'll see are the massive photos of former players during their time at UND. The Karl Goehring picture alone takes up a wall that is at least 15 feet wide. They must have missed those focusing too much on the 3'x2' pictures.
    Glad to have your perspective. Again, I wish I could judge for myself. Also wish UND hadn't taken away the main reason I'd make such a trip.

    As for removing the women's hockey stuff from the locker room area, that is because the women's soccer team is moving into that area. As the article states, most of the women's memorabilia and pictures and such are located near the locker room and coaches offices. How well does recruiting for soccer work when potential students are just looking at pictures of UND women's hockey players all around the soccer area. The current stuff will be moved to a public display area that will be done well but it had to be taken down from the locker room area for soccer.
    New tenants = remodeling, no question about it. The questions are when and how, not if.

    Just out of curiosity, how do the members of the Women's Soccer Team feel about all of this? Are they getting an upgrade? Or maybe someone else coveted their old location? Is their field/stadium actually close to the Ralph? Over maybe Soccer had to accept an inconvenient location to get a better space?

  11. #411
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by pgb-ohio View Post
    Glad to have your perspective. Again, I wish I could judge for myself. Also wish UND hadn't taken away the main reason I'd make such a trip.

    New tenants = remodeling, no question about it. The questions are when and how, not if.

    Just out of curiosity, how do the members of the Women's Soccer Team feel about all of this? Are they getting an upgrade? Or maybe someone else coveted their old location? Is their field/stadium actually close to the Ralph? Over maybe Soccer had to accept an inconvenient location to get a better space?
    https://www.google.com/maps/@47.9270.../data=!3m1!1e3

    Here's a link to an overhead view. You can see the soccer field is on the other side of the bookstore parking lot. It's a massive upgrade for the women's soccer team in terms of non-practice space. Locker room, lounges, weight room, kitchen, etc are some of the upgrades. With the new indoor practice facility where the old Ralph was, they have plenty of indoor practice space as well although that's about a half mile walk from their current field.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    I would be interested to see the line item to the women's soccer budget for using the space in The Ralph.

  13. #413
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by bc6696 View Post
    I would be interested to see the line item to the women's soccer budget for using the space in The Ralph.
    I have written about UND's cost for using REA both in this thread and my post The Cost for North Dakota to use the Ralph in my NCAA Hockey Financials thread in the Men's Forum. I also created a spreadsheet showing how much UND paid for using REA for each sport from 2010-16. UND women's soccer has paid $24,402 in 2016 for the use of locker roooms/space in REA since 2010.

    If you want to look at the NCAA reports yourself you can find the 2010-14 reports at the bottom of the The Chronicle of Higher Education’s report on athletic spending, The $10-Billion Sports Tab. Search for North Dakota, select "The University of North Dakota", then select "Download this Institution's documents" and then select a year. You can access the 2015 report from the President of UND's website and the 2016 report from UND's athletic website business section.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
    https://www.google.com/maps/@47.9270.../data=!3m1!1e3

    Here's a link to an overhead view. You can see the soccer field is on the other side of the bookstore parking lot. It's a massive upgrade for the women's soccer team in terms of non-practice space. Locker room, lounges, weight room, kitchen, etc are some of the upgrades. With the new indoor practice facility where the old Ralph was, they have plenty of indoor practice space as well although that's about a half mile walk from their current field.
    Appreciate the link. Combining your description and the overhead view, it appears to be a great situation for Women's Soccer. Given the location of their field, they were a legitimate candidate for the space. I'm happy for them. As I would be for any deserving group of athletes, male or female.

    And hey: Since they got the upgrade on a "hand me down" basis, people probably won't be hating on them for having fancy things. There is something to be said for being in the right place, at the right time...

  15. #415
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by pgb-ohio View Post
    Appreciate the link. Combining your description and the overhead view, it appears to be a great situation for Women's Soccer. Given the location of their field, they were a legitimate candidate for the space. I'm happy for them. As I would be for any deserving group of athletes, male or female.

    And hey: Since they got the upgrade on a "hand me down" basis, people probably won't be hating on them for having fancy things. There is something to be said for being in the right place, at the right time...
    Very true. They definitely deserved some upgrades. While they still had locker rooms in the Ralph previously, it was never on this scale. They still need a legit field as the current one is about as high school as you can get.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by cF[Authentic] View Post
    Very true. They definitely deserved some upgrades. While they still had locker rooms in the Ralph previously, it was never on this scale...
    While I'm not forgetting about the team that was in the wrong place at the wrong time, I am sincerely happy for the soccer players.

    From a hockey perspective, it's certainly no substitute, no cause for celebration. Call it a small silver lining.

    It could have been even worse. In the ugly world of politics, you don't have to look that hard to find situations where facilities are left vacant out of miserly spite. At least that didn't happen.

    Yes, I'm aware that "it could have been even worse" is faint praise.

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    As a follow up, for those interested.

    http://www.grandforksherald.com/spor...ts-against-und
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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