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Thread: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

  1. #261
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Timothy A View Post
    I had not considered the thought that the leaking of info caught UND off guard. That being said, in the world we live in, they should have told the players first, then the wwcha. That would have been a better look.
    You'd think a morning, contractually obligated, phone call to the league office would be held in confidence a few hours.

    The first reports were Mileski's Twitter.

    You tell me.


    A conspiracy theorist would hypothesize that the WCHA was still miffed at UND for the whole "NCHC" thing and used this as a chance to poke UND in the eye with the help of a useful idiot or a willing Twit-ter-er.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-20-2017 at 03:49 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    The problem is the news cycle is always ahead of the news releases in today's Twitter-verse.
    This.

    Though I am also critical of the way UND handled this, was there really a better way in today's world?

    "Back in my day" (LOL), this never would have happened because it essentially couldn't have. The school I went to killed men's baseball while I was there.

    One of my suite mates was a pitcher (in fact, he wound up the answer to the trivia question, who was the last winning pitcher for Potsdam State?). He had no idea what was going on till the team got called into a meeting. No inkling whatsoever. No leaks at all.

    It's just so difficult to pull that off in today's connected world.

  3. #263
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Another thought:

    If UND had cut the 8 programs I listed instead of just WIH, and assuming M/W S&D cut in either scenario, UND would've fallen from 20 NCAA sports to 10.

    That's below the minimum for NCAA DI FBS or NCAA DI FCS.

    UND would no longer qualify for NCAA DI.

    It would shut down all of UND Athletics.
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  4. #264
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    All these UND WIH players, they can now freely per NCAA rules transfer to ...

    Denv...
    UM Low...
    Notre Da...
    Western Mi...
    Air Fo...
    Mich...
    Michigan Sta...
    Miam...
    Colorado Col...
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  5. #265
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Hockeydad4two View Post
    Yes, nicely written, maybe it'll help her get a job.

    It never occurred to me that I should write a letter explaining how I felt after receiving my notice to report for a pre-induction physical and quit going to school the next day. Uncle Sam wants you for two years and if you're lucky, maybe you'll still be alive and intact after it's over.
    Shidt happens. Very few of us live the lives we hope and dream for, our plans are often ruined by the decisions of others.
    The nice thing is, it prepared me for work in the real world.
    Last year I was working for a company that discovered the project I was working on was 4 million over budget. They canned every contractor and consultant.

    Things could be worse, we could be living in Syria, Iraq, or Afghanistan, where if the government isn't trying to kill you, your neighbor is. And all that is between the US dropping bombs on your roof or shooting missiles up your azz.

    Some hockey princess losing her free ride isn't exactly the end of the world.
    Last edited by pokechecker; 04-20-2017 at 05:46 PM.
    when you mix pot, and driving around with a loaded gun, there is a fair chance the story will not have a happy ending

  6. #266
    2009 NCAA Champions Sean Pickett's Avatar
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Sean,

    Commendable work; however, here's what you really need to look at.

    FY15: https://und.edu/president/_files/doc...eport-2015.pdf
    FY16: http://www.undsports.com/fls/13500/A...B_OEM_ID=13500

    In the FY16 report you'll find UND WIH had $2,132,160 of expenses with $212,180 of revenue. Net loss: $1,919,980.

    Now, before the "yahbuts" show up regarding other UND sports and their net, again, remember: Champions Club "donations" are not allocated by sport. Those revenues are listed under "not allocated" so MIH, FB, MBB, and WBB revenues only show season tickets. The club "donations" to buy those season tickets are "not allocated". That's why "not allocated" revenue is about $17 million*.

    There was no Champions Club donation required for WIH tickets. There were always about 11000 available per home game.


    *Yes, that number includes other items like university funds and student fees.
    I have already seen those, along with the 2010-14 reports. I entered all the information into a workbook and posted about it earlier.

    Sean
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  7. #267
    2009 NCAA Champions Sean Pickett's Avatar
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    UND men's hockey pays the whole bill for use of REA. All of it.

    MBB, WBB, VB, WIH, and soccer (locker rooms) also use the facility, but UND MIH pays the usage costs. All of them. Look at the 2015 NCAA financials report for UND. It's there.

    In FY16 that changed. WIH started paying about 1/3 the costs.
    Reread my post. What the school paid in 2014-16 was to make up for missed or reduced payments owed for 2013 in men's hockey and 2014-15 in the other sports.

    Sean
    Last edited by Sean Pickett; 04-20-2017 at 07:02 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Pres. Kennedy of UND says it would take a $60 million endowment to sustain WIH.

    You want to live off the interest of an endowment, not touching the principal.

    The normal working number these days for safe interest on investments is 4%.

    4% of $60 million is $2.4 million annually.

    That's nominally what UND WIH expenses were in FY 16.

    Stuff costs money.


    Now, if you happen to have $60 million to invest in UND WIH, please make the check payable to "The UND Foundation's Women's Hockey Endowment".
    Where can you get 4%? I'm not talking about the casino called the stock market.

  9. #269
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Where can you get 4%? I'm not talking about the casino called the stock market.
    The average return on the S&P 500 over the last 90 years is about 10%. Adjust that to 7% for inflation. Adjust it down a bit farther if you want to use an alternative inflation measure. Adjust it down yet again if you want to factor in the risk of making your investment at the wrong time. 4% is a perfectly reasonable assumption. Keep in mind that about 40% of that return is dividends, which a lot of calculations of don't include in their figures for returns.

  10. #270
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post

    Now, if you happen to have $60 million to invest in UND WIH, please make the check payable to "The UND Foundation's Women's Hockey Endowment".
    The checks in the "Male".
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  11. #271
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Reread my post. What the school paid in 2014-16 was to make up for missed or reduced payments owed for 2013 in men's hockey and 2014-15 in the other sports.
    I refer to the FY15 report, section 34, "Athletic Facilities Debt Service, Leases and Rental Fee". There are six UND tenants in REA: MIH, WIH, MBB, WBB, WVB, WSoc. Note only MIH has section 34 fees; thus, only MIH is paying the fee to use REA. WIH et al are getting a free ride.

    You may find the same in the FY14 report, section 30, "Direct Facilities, Maintenance, and Rental".

    Finally in the FY16 report you'll find that UND Athletics, at the directive of the University Senate's Intercollegiate Activities Committee, did a truer account and spread the costs proportionately* across the six facility users. See section 34 "Athletic Facilities Debt Service, Leases and Rental Fee". There, finally, do you see UND MIH not carrying the full load of the expenses related to use and operation of REA.

    My point to this is two-fold: UNM MIH had been carrying the full load of all UND usage of REA thus their financials looked worse than they should; and, WIH and other programs were getting a free ride.

    Gotta pay to play.

    *Nominally, MBB 11%, WBB 11%, MIH 48%, WIH 18%, VB 11%, Soc 1% (as they only have lockers in there).
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  12. #272
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post
    The average return on the S&P 500 over the last 90 years is about 10%. Adjust that to 7% for inflation. Adjust it down a bit farther if you want to use an alternative inflation measure. Adjust it down yet again if you want to factor in the risk of making your investment at the wrong time. 4% is a perfectly reasonable assumption. Keep in mind that about 40% of that return is dividends, which a lot of calculations of don't include in their figures for returns.
    I know a few investment advisers and money managers that say 4% is an outrageous assumption in today's climate. They get itchy if you talk 3% and will only sign-on to guarantee 2.5%.

    I picked 4% because I could see where (the former CFO of Macy's and Pillsbury) UND president Mark Kennedy made his assumption to get to a $60 million endowment; namely, $2.4 million expenses annuitized up at 4%.
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Now, if you happen to have $60 million to invest in UND WIH, please make the check payable to "The UND Foundation's Women's Hockey Endowment".
    So, that's pretty much it in a nutshell from this President? "Ladies, if you want to participate, you're just going to have to enhance this endowment."
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  14. #274
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    So, that's pretty much it in a nutshell from this President? "Ladies, if you want to participate, you're just going to have to enhance this endowment."
    Stuff. Costs. Money.

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    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017 at 08:33 AM.
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  15. #275
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    I've been doing my best to be objective and factual when a lot of emoting on this subject has been happening. Well, I'm going to try to be the nice guy for a minute.


    Add up the number of conference regular season championships, plus conference post season championships, plus national championships, that UND WIH has won, and I personally will pay for that many more seasons of play. As a reader's aid, here's a resource to help you calculate what I'm buying with my bold and gracious offer.
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  16. #276
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    I refer to the FY15 report, section 34, "Athletic Facilities Debt Service, Leases and Rental Fee". There are six UND tenants in REA: MIH, WIH, MBB, WBB, WVB, WSoc. Note only MIH has section 34 fees; thus, only MIH is paying the fee to use REA. WIH et al are getting a free ride.

    You may find the same in the FY14 report, section 30, "Direct Facilities, Maintenance, and Rental".

    Finally in the FY16 report you'll find that UND Athletics, at the directive of the University Senate's Intercollegiate Activities Committee, did a truer account and spread the costs proportionately* across the six facility users. See section 34 "Athletic Facilities Debt Service, Leases and Rental Fee". There, finally, do you see UND MIH not carrying the full load of the expenses related to use and operation of REA.

    My point to this is two-fold: UNM MIH had been carrying the full load of all UND usage of REA thus their financials looked worse than they should; and, WIH and other programs were getting a free ride.

    Gotta pay to play.

    *Nominally, MBB 11%, WBB 11%, MIH 48%, WIH 18%, VB 11%, Soc 1% (as they only have lockers in there).
    I've looked at all the reports from 2010-16 and I agree that men's hockey has paid the bulk of the rental costs. According to Brad Schlossman the rental deal with the arena is that the school pays a percentage of all ticket sales and men's hockey has the highest ticket sales and therefore would have to pay the most to use the arena. Looking at the 2010-12 reports shows men's and women's basketball, men's and women's hockey and women's volleyball all paying 52% of their ticket sales in rent. So, it appears that Brad is correct about the cost of using the arena being tied to ticket sales. And if that is correct then spreading the cost around in 2016 is actually unfair, as it makes the other programs pay more than what the should pay based on their ticket sales. As for women's soccer, I have no idea what, if any arrangement was made, but 2016 is the only year it paid a rental fee.

    However, as I have previously stated, the school paid nowhere near 50-52% of all ticket sales to the arena in 2013 and it appears that it played catch-up in 2014 & 2015, as it paid far more than 50-52% of men's hockey ticket sales for those two years, even as the school charged nothing to the other sports. And again, the basketball rental payments in 2016 just about cover what those teams owed for 2013-15, so it will be interesting to see if the school continues to charge them so much, or even more, with women's hockey no longer using the arena, although we will have to wait 2 years to see.

    Sean
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    I've been doing my best to be objective and factual when a lot of emoting on this subject has been happening. Well, I'm going to try to be the nice guy for a minute.


    Add up the number of conference regular season championships, plus conference post season championships, plus national championships, that UND WIH has won, and I personally will pay for that many more seasons of play. As a reader's aid, here's a resource to help you calculate what I'm buying with my bold and gracious offer.
    Besides men's and women's hockey how many championships have all the other UND sports won? Should all sports have to win a title within so many years or be eliminated? Is college sports just about winning?

    Sean
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    I've been doing my best to be objective and factual when a lot of emoting on this subject has been happening. Well, I'm going to try to be the nice guy for a minute.


    Add up the number of conference regular season championships, plus conference post season championships, plus national championships, that UND WIH has won, and I personally will pay for that many more seasons of play. As a reader's aid, here's a resource to help you calculate what I'm buying with my bold and gracious offer.
    What if UM, UMD, or Wisconsin were willing to donate a couple of their championchips to help your nice guy gesture?

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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Besides men's and women's hockey how many championships have all the other UND sports won? Should all sports have to win a title within so many years or be eliminated? Is college sports just about winning?

    Sean
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  20. #280
    Kichizapi Chetan
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    Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Besides men's and women's hockey how many championships have all the other UND sports won? Should all sports have to win a title within so many years or be eliminated? Is college sports just about winning?
    Again, UND WIH has no championships of any sort. Nada. Nix. None. Nyet. Nay. Nolo. El zippo.

    MIH: 8 NC
    WIH: 0 of any (conf, conf tourney, NC)

    WBB: 3 NC (DII)
    FB: 1 NC (DII) and a runner-up

    Heck, UND pulled off the Big Sky Quad this year -- conference champs in FB, MBB, WBB, and VB (while reigning as MIH national champs).

    Do you have to win? No. But if the budget must be cut per the Governor and Legislature, you have to start looking at return on investment. When you are red $2,000,000.00 and have nothing to show for it ...


    PS -- That's $2 million red on one line item in a roughly $24 million budget.
    Last edited by The Sicatoka; 04-21-2017 at 11:10 AM.
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