REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Perhaps your information was factual, but the tone (I know, difficult to infer), certainly seems confrontational. Although not everyone on this forum may have an in depth knowledge of UND, there are many here that have been covering WIH for years, so perhaps a little respect and humility is called for on both sides.

My tone? It's flat, but yes, I can be somewhat confrontational when I don't see all aspects of a complex issue being discussed.

When I realized how much and how deep had to be cut it was stunning, it hurt*, but I moved through the stages of grief to acceptance, to what I call "Joe Friday" or "Spock" mode. Just the facts. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. It sucks, but it is what it is.

As far as quantity, this is a multi-faceted issue. 140 characters don't suffice.


*This statement extends beyond Athletics to all of UND. There is a ton of talent taking early retirement buyout offers to help out. There are programs, majors, being shrunk or suspended or cut.

[SJHovey]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

May I ask what misinformation? and what numbers? I know I questioned some of the numbers from the UND NCAA reports. Some of them were answered, but I am interested in knowing if all of them were addressed or not.

Sean

I wasn't talking about your financial numbers Sean. They came later I know you were just doing the best you could with the info you had available.

What initially prompted me to post in this thread were some posts that talked about the number of male athletes who's sports were cut versus female athletes who's sports were cut; some claims that UND's student body was about 50/50 male to female, but athletics would now be out of whack with that number; and a post that UND couldn't cut women's hockey while keeping men's hockey because they were our only D1 sports.

[GTOWN]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

My tone? It's flat, but yes, I can be somewhat confrontational when I don't see all aspects of a complex issue being discussed.

When I realized how much and how deep had to be cut it was stunning, it hurt*, but I moved through the stages of grief to acceptance, to what I call "Joe Friday" or "Spock" mode. Just the facts. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the one. It sucks, but it is what it is.

As far as quantity, this is a multi-faceted issue. 140 characters don't suffice.


*This statement extends beyond Athletics to all of UND. There is a ton of talent taking early retirement buyout offers to help out. There are programs, majors, being shrunk or suspended or cut.

Agree that this is too complex a situation for 140 characters. Might I suggest that when all the emotion is taken out of it, then we lose something. That's when decisions are made based purely on numbers on a page and not necessarily the human impact (not just talking about WIH....).

I welcome emotion creeping in to a conversation. what's happening at UND across the board is a horrible shame, certainly not trying to minimize that. But the key focus on this board is WIH, and the constituency here will inevitably focus on that and the human impact on the players, coaches as well as the larger community. you certainly can't fault a WIH board for focusing on WIH......

[Leather helmet]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Antagonize?
I put out factual information that can checked, and with no ad hominem attacks.

I think you antagonized the hominems on this thread when you took time to compare women's hockey unfavorably to boy's HS hockey. Nobody is going to argue that the speed of women's hockey is equal to men's, but a good women's game is as entertaining as any other competitive game.

You obviously watch men's collegiate hockey. But why would you, when the speed and the skill of that game is not up to NHL standards? Why would you watch a boy's HS game, when it is not as fast or as skilled as NCAA?

I grew up playing hockey, and I had season tickets to UM games during the Herb Brooks era, so I love men's hockey. However, I have grown to appreciate the women's game through years of watching my daughter play U8, U10, U12 and HS hockey. I appreciate the dedication and the skill of the players, and I know they want to win as badly as the boys.

If you want to avoid being attacked, then have some respect for the seventeen people who live here.

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I wasn't talking about your financial numbers Sean. They came later I know you were just doing the best you could with the info you had available.

What initially prompted me to post in this thread were some posts that talked about the number of male athletes who's sports were cut versus female athletes who's sports were cut; some claims that UND's student body was about 50/50 male to female, but athletics would now be out of whack with that number; and a post that UND couldn't cut women's hockey while keeping men's hockey because they were our only D1 sports.

Thanks for your reply.

Sean

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Agree that this is too complex a situation for 140 characters. Might I suggest that when all the emotion is taken out of it, then we lose something. That's when decisions are made based purely on numbers on a page and not necessarily the human impact (not just talking about WIH....).

The numbers do account for the human impacts. I previously showed how cutting other sports at UND would've impacted far more student-athletes.

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think you antagonized the hominems on this thread ...

If posing a differing point of view, backed by facts, with no ad hominem (shoot the messenger) thrown in, is antagonistic and not just debate, we're done as a society.

[Timothy A]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think you antagonized the hominems on this thread when you took time to compare women's hockey unfavorably to boy's HS hockey. Nobody is going to argue that the speed of women's hockey is equal to men's, but a good women's game is as entertaining as any other competitive game.

A great save is a great save at any level. A beautiful tick tack toe scoring play is beautiful at any level. Shooting the puck into a 5" x 3" slot above the shoulder blocker side is an awesome goal any way you cut it. A deft stick check to kill a scoring chance is a appreciated at any level. And let's not forget the fun you have at the games and the drama of the games. I know I've seen plenty of plays by a female in a game that a male would love to be able to do. I think Mr. Sicatoka is letting his peepee do his thinking. He must not be married or have a daughter unless they have been beat down into inferiority.

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

I think Mr. Sicatoka is letting his peepee do his thinking. He must not be married or have a daughter unless they have been beat down into inferiority.

Again with ad hominem.

Find a solution, a workable budget, to save the team that my niece's UND roommates played on a few years back. I'm listening. I'm sure Mark Kennedy and Brian Faison will as well.

[Sean Pickett]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

UND WIH has been known to those paying attention to the other side of college sports (budgets, media, conference moves) to be a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time. It was exasperated with the move of UND Athletics from DII to DI.

But, it was manageable during prosperous times (high oil and ag commodity prices and revenues flowing into state coffers): UND was getting so much state money thrown at it papering over $1.5 to $2 million losses in one program, WIH, could be tolerated.

Since this is a women's hockey forum I've limited my remarks about other sports at UND, but I do want to point out, and as you should well know, there is another sport at UND that has been a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time, with yearly loses between $1.86 and $2.74 million from 2010 to 2016 for a total loss of $16 million. That sport is football. For the same period women's hockey lost between $854 thousand and $1.9 million yearly, for a total loss of $8.7 million. So which sport is the bigger drain on Athletics?

Sean

[pokechecker]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Since this is a women's hockey forum I've limited my remarks about other sports at UND, but I do want to point out, and as you should well know, there is another sport at UND that has been a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time, with yearly loses between $1.86 and $2.74 million from 2010 to 2016 for a total loss of $16 million. That sport is football. For the same period women's hockey lost between $854 thousand and $1.9 million yearly, for a total loss of $8.7 million. So which sport is the bigger drain on Athletics?

Sean

since football serves over 3 times as many student athletes, and I'd be willing to bet it also serves at least 10 times as many students/alumni who attend and follow games
women's hockey is the bigger drain

make that was, it is over

[GTOWN]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

The numbers do account for the human impacts. I previously showed how cutting other sports at UND would've impacted far more student-athletes.

And that's where you lose me. The numbers substantiate that this was one of (potentially a few) paths possible to solve a financial dilemma.

The human impact is the toll the decision has taken on those directly affected. The human impact of the decision is a junior having to decide if she hangs up her skates and pockets the scholarship or tried to land spot somewhere else. It's the senior crying herself to sleep because her last year (which she has been looking forward to from day 1) is being taken away from her.
That's the human impact, what you're talking about is a business decision.

[pokechecker]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

exactly, UND administration cut WH to minimize the number of students crying themselves to sleep.

Isn't part of the purpose of participating in sports to teach life's lessons? I understand some of you find keeping score ghastly, but a game and a season is life in miniature, it's all pretend, nobody dies, everyone gets a do over, how you react to failure and loss ...

[cF[Authentic]]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Since this is a women's hockey forum I've limited my remarks about other sports at UND, but I do want to point out, and as you should well know, there is another sport at UND that has been a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time, with yearly loses between $1.86 and $2.74 million from 2010 to 2016 for a total loss of $16 million. That sport is football. For the same period women's hockey lost between $854 thousand and $1.9 million yearly, for a total loss of $8.7 million. So which sport is the bigger drain on Athletics?

Sean

That is where the Champions Club donations come into play. The six best non-students sections all require a Champions Club membership to buy season tickets for football. The lowest donation is $200 which gets you 4 seats in the outer sections. The lowest donation for the center section is $3,750 for up to 12 tickets. $7,500 and up gets you 16 tickets. Those numbers are in addition to the ticket prices which were raised during the offseason to $95 and $80 depending on section.

[The Sicatoka]

Re: REPORT: North Dakota cutting women's hockey

Since this is a women's hockey forum I've limited my remarks about other sports at UND, but I do want to point out, and as you should well know, there is another sport at UND that has been a fiscal drain on the Athletic department for a long time, with yearly loses between $1.86 and $2.74 million from 2010 to 2016 for a total loss of $16 million. That sport is football. For the same period women's hockey lost between $854 thousand and $1.9 million yearly, for a total loss of $8.7 million. So which sport is the bigger drain on Athletics?

Again, in UND's reporting methodology, only direct ticket sales are reported on the NCAA reports as ticket revenues. It doesn't not include required Champions Club "donations" to purchase season tickets. Those donations are listed under "unallocated". Add those in and numbers look better. (And I plainly admit "better", not great.)

And, as a people impact, with a 100 person roster, FB loses nominally $27k per participant (the $2.7M number), versus WIH losing $76k per participant (using 25 skaters and the $1.9M number).