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  • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    after getting their pay cut in the "pros" no doubt they need to make it up somewhere, and contributed to them taking a hard line with USA Hockey, in looking at what other sports are getting "paid" by their governing body, it appears USA Hockey has brought them up to what others are getting, or at least more in line

    they have already received more ink for their strike than they would have if they'd have played and won gold, so combine that with any gains, it's a win for them

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    • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

      Nice article on 2 Natty team players from AZ - Makenna Newkirk and some guy named Matthews.

      http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-college-women
      CCT '77 & '78
      4 kids
      5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
      1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

      ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
      - Benjamin Franklin

      Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

      I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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      • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

        Originally posted by joecct View Post
        Nice article on 2 Natty team players from AZ - Makenna Newkirk and some guy named Matthews.

        http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-college-women
        the problem with that is they ignore the fact that people stand in line to pay big bucks for the men's game and tickets go unsold in empty arenas for the women

        it isn't discrimination, it is a fact of life, in our culture money talks, follow the money

        BC games are attended by a few hundred people, the "pro" league can't get 1,000 people in the door, people generally are not keen on flushing money down a toilet, the NHL supplies big bucks to USA hockey, they expect a return, don't be naive

        hey, I'm all for the women getting more support from USA Hockey

        but keep in mind there isn't pay equity among the women, some get $26K, others $16K, others $6K, and the practice players get nothing
        the same is true of the national team, they do not all get "paid" the same
        if they really want equity, the ones getting $26K should fork over $10K to the ones getting $6K

        bottom line is, unless and until people buy tickets in the same numbers and for the same amount as for the men, there will not be equity in pay and spending, nor should there be

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        • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

          Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
          the problem with that is they ignore the fact that people stand in line to pay big bucks for the men's game and tickets go unsold in empty arenas for the women

          it isn't discrimination, it is a fact of life, in our culture money talks, follow the money

          BC games are attended by a few hundred people, the "pro" league can't get 1,000 people in the door, people generally are not keen on flushing money down a toilet, the NHL supplies big bucks to USA hockey, they expect a return, don't be naive

          hey, I'm all for the women getting more support from USA Hockey

          but keep in mind there isn't pay equity among the women, some get $26K, others $16K, others $6K, and the practice players get nothing
          the same is true of the national team, they do not all get "paid" the same
          if they really want equity, the ones getting $26K should fork over $10K to the ones getting $6K

          bottom line is, unless and until people buy tickets in the same numbers and for the same amount as for the men, there will not be equity in pay and spending, nor should there be
          Not disagreeing with what you are saying here, but, what if they marketed the women's game as much as the men's game? Not a lot of people watched cage fighting, especially women, until they started to market it. I made this statement in a different forum, but, if the Kardashians can make millions for being complete idiots, I think we can do something here to make this better for the women that are much better role models for young women.

          Comment


          • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

            Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
            but keep in mind there isn't pay equity among the women, some get $26K, others $16K, others $6K, and the practice players get nothing
            the same is true of the national team, they do not all get "paid" the same
            if they really want equity, the ones getting $26K should fork over $10K to the ones getting $6K
            Why should the better players have to give some of their salary to other players? Or should the top NHL players give some (most?) of their salaries to other NHL players making the league minimum?

            Sean
            Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
            Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

            BU Hockey Games
            BU Hockey highlights and extras
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            Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
            I need a kidney; looking for a donor

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            • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

              Update:

              http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/u...-wage-dispute/
              CCT '77 & '78
              4 kids
              5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
              1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

              ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
              - Benjamin Franklin

              Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

              I want to live forever. So far, so good.

              Comment


              • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                Originally posted by Sean Pickett View Post
                Why should the better players have to give some of their salary to other players? Or should the top NHL players give some (most?) of their salaries to other NHL players making the league minimum?

                Sean
                exactly my point, which apparently everyone but you seems to understand

                I keep thinking of a neighbor who is is teacher, and a lefty always harping about pay equity
                she gets mad at me every time I remind her that she gets paid more for teaching her grade school class than the other teachers teaching the same level
                why? because that's what her union bargained for, and she supports, teachers with more experience get paid more
                funny how it is unfair when somebody makes more than you, but when you make more than somebody else, there always seems to be a valid reason for it

                if you harp about parity, then there should be parity across the board, no exceptions, people who perform the same work should get paid the same
                if not, at minimum, you are a hypocrite

                most people understand that in sports you get paid for performance, or at least what the payer expects of your performance
                if you don't perform up to their expectations, you likely won't have a job
                if they don't expecting much from your performance, your pay will not be much
                it's pretty much supply and demand economics in sports



                Originally posted by DDad16 View Post
                Not disagreeing with what you are saying here, but, what if they marketed the women's game as much as the men's game? Not a lot of people watched cage fighting, especially women, until they started to market it. I made this statement in a different forum, but, if the Kardashians can make millions for being complete idiots, I think we can do something here to make this better for the women that are much better role models for young women.
                see above,
                however, now you are arguing comparable worth, which is sort of the same, but different
                the argument is that people who perform work of comparable value, should be paid accordingly
                in your view and mine, the family you mention perform work that in our opinion is worthless
                yet, millions of people watch and follow their every move
                almost nobody watches and follows women's hockey, despite your and mine interest in watching them
                simply supply and demand

                if women soccer players, or hockey players can make the roster of a men's team and perform similar to men, then indeed they should be paid the same as men

                or

                if women soccer players, or hockey players can draw the same crowds of people who pay the same ticket price as for a men's game, then indeed they should be paid the same as men

                but neither is presently the case
                Last edited by pokechecker; 03-22-2017, 05:55 PM. Reason: hopefully for their sake the lefties won't choke too hard on this

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                • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                  Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                  exactly my point, which apparently everyone but you seems to understand
                  I apologize for misunderstanding your post.

                  Sean
                  Women's Hockey East Champions 2015, 2014, 2013, 2012, 2010
                  Men's NCAA Champions 2009, 1995, 1978, 1972, 1971

                  BU Hockey Games
                  BU Hockey highlights and extras
                  NCAA Hockey Financials
                  Women's Division I Longest Hockey Games
                  I need a kidney; looking for a donor

                  Comment


                  • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                    Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                    most people understand that in sports you get paid for performance
                    The slight edge theory/principle is the best example of this.

                    Comment


                    • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                      Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                      see above,
                      however, now you are arguing comparable worth, which is sort of the same, but different
                      the argument is that people who perform work of comparable value, should be paid accordingly
                      in your view and mine, the family you mention perform work that in our opinion is worthless
                      yet, millions of people watch and follow their every move
                      almost nobody watches and follows women's hockey, despite your and mine interest in watching them
                      simply supply and demand

                      if women soccer players, or hockey players can make the roster of a men's team and perform similar to men, then indeed they should be paid the same as men

                      or

                      if women soccer players, or hockey players can draw the same crowds of people who pay the same ticket price as for a men's game, then indeed they should be paid the same as men

                      but neither is presently the case
                      I'm not arguing that they should be paid the same... You stated that "unless and until people buy tickets in the same numbers and for the same amount as for the men". What I am saying is that if the Women's game was marketed and promoted as much as the men's, we may eventually get to a point where this occurs. Right now there doesn't seem to be any interest in doing this. Even the NBA supports the WNBA. Where is the NHL support for the Women's game? While the NBA admits the WNBA is not where they hoped it would be, Adam Silver admits the NBA "can do a much better job at marketing”. THAT is what it comes down to. Forget about the pay, make it reasonable to start. Drive the demand through Marketing and fill the seats.

                      Comment


                      • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                        It's a chicken and egg argument tho. What comes first, interest because of marketing? Or do marketers gravitate to things that have fan interest?

                        Maine Hockey: I want to believe
                        43-21-4 (.662) in games I attended over 4 years as a student
                        104-47-14 (.669) in that time
                        3x FROZEN FOUR

                        11-20-2 in games I've attended since. (2-2-1 under Red)

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                        • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                          Originally posted by DDad16 View Post
                          .
                          under "settings" there is a feature on the left-hand side, "ignore list" click on that and you can avoid a lot of this BS

                          There is a difference between equitable and equal. Some people choose to ignore that and assume a request of equitable means equal without understanding the difference
                          Last edited by ne7minder; 03-23-2017, 04:05 PM.

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                          • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                            Originally posted by DDad16 View Post
                            I'm not arguing that they should be paid the same... You stated that "unless and until people buy tickets in the same numbers and for the same amount as for the men". What I am saying is that if the Women's game was marketed and promoted as much as the men's, we may eventually get to a point where this occurs. Right now there doesn't seem to be any interest in doing this. Even the NBA supports the WNBA. Where is the NHL support for the Women's game? While the NBA admits the WNBA is not where they hoped it would be, Adam Silver admits the NBA "can do a much better job at marketing”. THAT is what it comes down to. Forget about the pay, make it reasonable to start. Drive the demand through Marketing and fill the seats.
                            I hope you are not saying that if the NHL gave them money to market themselves, problem solved.
                            Sure, if somebody has a marketing strategy that would get people to show up and fork over $25 or more at the college games, or 2 or 3 times that amount for the pros, the problem would be solved.
                            Do you have such a strategy? If so, I'd like to get a taste of that. I'm sure there are about three dozen colleges/universities and 9 "pro" teams that would be interested too.
                            It took pro baseball 140-150 years to get to this point. The NHL 100. Back when I was a kid pro hockey players didn't make much more than the average Joe, and if you were a US player, forget it.

                            BTW, what if somebody decided to start a pro sled league or an adapted pro league, should the NHL fund them too? What salary do you think would be fair for these players? Should USA hockey pay these players the same as the women to prepare for their Olympics?

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                            • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                              Originally posted by pokechecker View Post
                              It took pro baseball 140-150 years to get to this point. The NHL 100. Back when I was a kid pro hockey players didn't make much more than the average Joe, and if you were a US player, forget it.
                              I think we all understand that. But from a sense of fairness, it isn't particularly fair that a rather average MLB baseball player today can earn many times what Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays made. And it doesn't make a lot of sense that a CEO of a corporation that is losing money or a shooting guard from a last-place team demands a bigger salary than one of the best heart surgeons. It is based on supply and demand, yes, but why we value one thing over another isn't always logical.

                              As far as the women, I can see both sides. The current women's players may lack some perspective of history and Olympic athletes a few generations back who received almost no support from a national body and had to train on their own. At the same time, giving more aid to just another fourth-line grinder on a men's team than you give to the best women hockey players in the world just because he was born with a Y chromosome doesn't seem right. Yes, he is bigger, stronger, faster. But when I watched the MN boys' HS tourney a couple weeks back, those players were better physically than the women's NCAA players. They were much better at finishing. However, they didn't always hold to the fundamentals of the game. Kids were constantly turning the puck over because they'd reach back with one hand while skating away from the play, and if they lost it, they just kept going. Women's players seem far more disciplined about stopping and starting and getting back in the play quickly, rather than just doing what is easy.

                              And when it comes to a U.S. Olympic team, there isn't a lot more demand for success by men over women. In sports like figure skating and gymnastics, I think there is more weight (and ratings) on the women's side. I've watch many a graphic that NBC puts up showing medal counts by country, and a lot of times, the American women are doing the bulk of the winning. As a country, we want to win the gold medal in women's ice hockey, even if we only care about it for a couple of weeks every four years. If we suddenly have no better chance than Russia does of winning gold in women's ice hockey because the best women retire as soon as they graduate from college, then it gets harder to hold viewer interest and sell those Big Macs.
                              "... And lose, and start again at your beginnings
                              And never breathe a word about your loss;" -- Rudyard Kipling

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                              • Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

                                Replacements being contacted

                                http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/u...-replacements/
                                CCT '77 & '78
                                4 kids
                                5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                                1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                                ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                                - Benjamin Franklin

                                Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                                I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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