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Thread: 2017 Women's World Championships

  1. #121
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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    after getting their pay cut in the "pros" no doubt they need to make it up somewhere, and contributed to them taking a hard line with USA Hockey, in looking at what other sports are getting "paid" by their governing body, it appears USA Hockey has brought them up to what others are getting, or at least more in line

    they have already received more ink for their strike than they would have if they'd have played and won gold, so combine that with any gains, it's a win for them

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Nice article on 2 Natty team players from AZ - Makenna Newkirk and some guy named Matthews.

    http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-college-women

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Nice article on 2 Natty team players from AZ - Makenna Newkirk and some guy named Matthews.

    http://www.pensionplanpuppets.com/20...-college-women
    the problem with that is they ignore the fact that people stand in line to pay big bucks for the men's game and tickets go unsold in empty arenas for the women

    it isn't discrimination, it is a fact of life, in our culture money talks, follow the money

    BC games are attended by a few hundred people, the "pro" league can't get 1,000 people in the door, people generally are not keen on flushing money down a toilet, the NHL supplies big bucks to USA hockey, they expect a return, don't be naive

    hey, I'm all for the women getting more support from USA Hockey

    but keep in mind there isn't pay equity among the women, some get $26K, others $16K, others $6K, and the practice players get nothing
    the same is true of the national team, they do not all get "paid" the same
    if they really want equity, the ones getting $26K should fork over $10K to the ones getting $6K

    bottom line is, unless and until people buy tickets in the same numbers and for the same amount as for the men, there will not be equity in pay and spending, nor should there be

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    the problem with that is they ignore the fact that people stand in line to pay big bucks for the men's game and tickets go unsold in empty arenas for the women

    it isn't discrimination, it is a fact of life, in our culture money talks, follow the money

    BC games are attended by a few hundred people, the "pro" league can't get 1,000 people in the door, people generally are not keen on flushing money down a toilet, the NHL supplies big bucks to USA hockey, they expect a return, don't be naive

    hey, I'm all for the women getting more support from USA Hockey

    but keep in mind there isn't pay equity among the women, some get $26K, others $16K, others $6K, and the practice players get nothing
    the same is true of the national team, they do not all get "paid" the same
    if they really want equity, the ones getting $26K should fork over $10K to the ones getting $6K

    bottom line is, unless and until people buy tickets in the same numbers and for the same amount as for the men, there will not be equity in pay and spending, nor should there be
    Not disagreeing with what you are saying here, but, what if they marketed the women's game as much as the men's game? Not a lot of people watched cage fighting, especially women, until they started to market it. I made this statement in a different forum, but, if the Kardashians can make millions for being complete idiots, I think we can do something here to make this better for the women that are much better role models for young women.

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    but keep in mind there isn't pay equity among the women, some get $26K, others $16K, others $6K, and the practice players get nothing
    the same is true of the national team, they do not all get "paid" the same
    if they really want equity, the ones getting $26K should fork over $10K to the ones getting $6K
    Why should the better players have to give some of their salary to other players? Or should the top NHL players give some (most?) of their salaries to other NHL players making the league minimum?

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships


  7. #127
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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Sean Pickett View Post
    Why should the better players have to give some of their salary to other players? Or should the top NHL players give some (most?) of their salaries to other NHL players making the league minimum?

    Sean
    exactly my point, which apparently everyone but you seems to understand

    I keep thinking of a neighbor who is is teacher, and a lefty always harping about pay equity
    she gets mad at me every time I remind her that she gets paid more for teaching her grade school class than the other teachers teaching the same level
    why? because that's what her union bargained for, and she supports, teachers with more experience get paid more
    funny how it is unfair when somebody makes more than you, but when you make more than somebody else, there always seems to be a valid reason for it

    if you harp about parity, then there should be parity across the board, no exceptions, people who perform the same work should get paid the same
    if not, at minimum, you are a hypocrite

    most people understand that in sports you get paid for performance, or at least what the payer expects of your performance
    if you don't perform up to their expectations, you likely won't have a job
    if they don't expecting much from your performance, your pay will not be much
    it's pretty much supply and demand economics in sports



    Quote Originally Posted by DDad16 View Post
    Not disagreeing with what you are saying here, but, what if they marketed the women's game as much as the men's game? Not a lot of people watched cage fighting, especially women, until they started to market it. I made this statement in a different forum, but, if the Kardashians can make millions for being complete idiots, I think we can do something here to make this better for the women that are much better role models for young women.
    see above,
    however, now you are arguing comparable worth, which is sort of the same, but different
    the argument is that people who perform work of comparable value, should be paid accordingly
    in your view and mine, the family you mention perform work that in our opinion is worthless
    yet, millions of people watch and follow their every move
    almost nobody watches and follows women's hockey, despite your and mine interest in watching them
    simply supply and demand

    if women soccer players, or hockey players can make the roster of a men's team and perform similar to men, then indeed they should be paid the same as men

    or

    if women soccer players, or hockey players can draw the same crowds of people who pay the same ticket price as for a men's game, then indeed they should be paid the same as men

    but neither is presently the case
    Last edited by pokechecker; 03-22-2017 at 05:55 PM. Reason: hopefully for their sake the lefties won't choke too hard on this

  8. #128
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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    exactly my point, which apparently everyone but you seems to understand
    I apologize for misunderstanding your post.

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    most people understand that in sports you get paid for performance
    The slight edge theory/principle is the best example of this.

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    see above,
    however, now you are arguing comparable worth, which is sort of the same, but different
    the argument is that people who perform work of comparable value, should be paid accordingly
    in your view and mine, the family you mention perform work that in our opinion is worthless
    yet, millions of people watch and follow their every move
    almost nobody watches and follows women's hockey, despite your and mine interest in watching them
    simply supply and demand

    if women soccer players, or hockey players can make the roster of a men's team and perform similar to men, then indeed they should be paid the same as men

    or

    if women soccer players, or hockey players can draw the same crowds of people who pay the same ticket price as for a men's game, then indeed they should be paid the same as men

    but neither is presently the case
    I'm not arguing that they should be paid the same... You stated that "unless and until people buy tickets in the same numbers and for the same amount as for the men". What I am saying is that if the Women's game was marketed and promoted as much as the men's, we may eventually get to a point where this occurs. Right now there doesn't seem to be any interest in doing this. Even the NBA supports the WNBA. Where is the NHL support for the Women's game? While the NBA admits the WNBA is not where they hoped it would be, Adam Silver admits the NBA "can do a much better job at marketing”. THAT is what it comes down to. Forget about the pay, make it reasonable to start. Drive the demand through Marketing and fill the seats.

  11. #131
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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    It's a chicken and egg argument tho. What comes first, interest because of marketing? Or do marketers gravitate to things that have fan interest?

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by DDad16 View Post
    .
    under "settings" there is a feature on the left-hand side, "ignore list" click on that and you can avoid a lot of this BS

    There is a difference between equitable and equal. Some people choose to ignore that and assume a request of equitable means equal without understanding the difference
    Last edited by ne7minder; 03-23-2017 at 04:05 PM.

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by DDad16 View Post
    I'm not arguing that they should be paid the same... You stated that "unless and until people buy tickets in the same numbers and for the same amount as for the men". What I am saying is that if the Women's game was marketed and promoted as much as the men's, we may eventually get to a point where this occurs. Right now there doesn't seem to be any interest in doing this. Even the NBA supports the WNBA. Where is the NHL support for the Women's game? While the NBA admits the WNBA is not where they hoped it would be, Adam Silver admits the NBA "can do a much better job at marketing”. THAT is what it comes down to. Forget about the pay, make it reasonable to start. Drive the demand through Marketing and fill the seats.
    I hope you are not saying that if the NHL gave them money to market themselves, problem solved.
    Sure, if somebody has a marketing strategy that would get people to show up and fork over $25 or more at the college games, or 2 or 3 times that amount for the pros, the problem would be solved.
    Do you have such a strategy? If so, I'd like to get a taste of that. I'm sure there are about three dozen colleges/universities and 9 "pro" teams that would be interested too.
    It took pro baseball 140-150 years to get to this point. The NHL 100. Back when I was a kid pro hockey players didn't make much more than the average Joe, and if you were a US player, forget it.

    BTW, what if somebody decided to start a pro sled league or an adapted pro league, should the NHL fund them too? What salary do you think would be fair for these players? Should USA hockey pay these players the same as the women to prepare for their Olympics?

  14. #134
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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by pokechecker View Post
    It took pro baseball 140-150 years to get to this point. The NHL 100. Back when I was a kid pro hockey players didn't make much more than the average Joe, and if you were a US player, forget it.
    I think we all understand that. But from a sense of fairness, it isn't particularly fair that a rather average MLB baseball player today can earn many times what Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays made. And it doesn't make a lot of sense that a CEO of a corporation that is losing money or a shooting guard from a last-place team demands a bigger salary than one of the best heart surgeons. It is based on supply and demand, yes, but why we value one thing over another isn't always logical.

    As far as the women, I can see both sides. The current women's players may lack some perspective of history and Olympic athletes a few generations back who received almost no support from a national body and had to train on their own. At the same time, giving more aid to just another fourth-line grinder on a men's team than you give to the best women hockey players in the world just because he was born with a Y chromosome doesn't seem right. Yes, he is bigger, stronger, faster. But when I watched the MN boys' HS tourney a couple weeks back, those players were better physically than the women's NCAA players. They were much better at finishing. However, they didn't always hold to the fundamentals of the game. Kids were constantly turning the puck over because they'd reach back with one hand while skating away from the play, and if they lost it, they just kept going. Women's players seem far more disciplined about stopping and starting and getting back in the play quickly, rather than just doing what is easy.

    And when it comes to a U.S. Olympic team, there isn't a lot more demand for success by men over women. In sports like figure skating and gymnastics, I think there is more weight (and ratings) on the women's side. I've watch many a graphic that NBC puts up showing medal counts by country, and a lot of times, the American women are doing the bulk of the winning. As a country, we want to win the gold medal in women's ice hockey, even if we only care about it for a couple of weeks every four years. If we suddenly have no better chance than Russia does of winning gold in women's ice hockey because the best women retire as soon as they graduate from college, then it gets harder to hold viewer interest and sell those Big Macs.
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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships


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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by ARM View Post
    As far as the women, I can see both sides. The current women's players may lack some perspective of history and Olympic athletes a few generations back who received almost no support from a national body and had to train on their own.
    One difference, though, is that back in those days, the athletes in sports with little financial backing were part-timers. It was acknowledged by everyone that they had a first job and that they were only athletes in their spare time. That's why it was just accepted that the Americans were going to lose badly in sports like bobsled, where the West German government openly provided financial support to their team, to say nothing of the Soviet bloc countries.

    USA Hockey wants to have it both ways. They don't want to support the women's team, but they also want the players to be in year round, full time training. That's not a model that can survive if the players decide that they've had enough of living in penury. USA Hockey needs to decide what it wants, and then provide the support necessary to fund those desires. If what it wants to pay for is amateur players, than amateur players are what it's going to get.

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by BoSox3066 View Post
    It's a chicken and egg argument tho. What comes first, interest because of marketing? Or do marketers gravitate to things that have fan interest?
    I asked my daughter this as she is taking Marketing this year in school. Her answer was that before marketing anything they look at the target group and then come up with a marketing campaign. Otherwise, they will be wasting their money. She also said I could talk to her teacher if I wanted to know more. So, in answer to your questions it would appear that marketers look for fan interest first and then they are willing to market the product if they think it will help to sell it.

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Also, keep in mind that, from a legal standpoint, USA Hockey cannot just declare that there is more interest in men's hockey, and so they are going to provide more support for it. The Amateur Sports Act mandates that national governing bodies provide equal support to both genders in their sport. It says nothing about looking at attendance.

    The issue of pay for the women on the national team is complicated by the fact that the money that allows the men on the senior national team to be professionals does not come from USA Hockey; it comes from the NHL. This is something that makes this situation different than the dispute last year involving the U.S. women's soccer team; U.S. Soccer does provide substantial direct financial support to the men's players, and the dispute was over whether the money provided to the women in a complicated arrangement amounted to equivalent support to what the men get in an equally complicated but differently structured system. My guess is that the women hockey players have little legal case against USA Hockey over their wages.

    The same cannot be said for the support provided to youth programs. I'm not a big fan of the USNTDP on the boys' side and wouldn't want to see it implemented for the girls, but it's indisputable that the boys' programs receive a lot more financial support then do the girls'. That includes not only the USNTDP itself, but also the subsidies that USA Hockey provides to the USHL. As I've said before, the problem with trying to make a legal case of it is finding someone who both has standing to sue and a desire to actually do so. But it seems pretty clear that USA Hockey is not meeting its legal obligations on this point.

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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
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    Re: 2017 Women's World Championships

    Quote Originally Posted by Eeyore View Post

    The issue of pay for the women on the national team is complicated by the fact that the money that allows the men on the senior national team to be professionals does not come from USA Hockey; it comes from the NHL.
    nothing complicated about that, 15-20,000 seat arenas are filled with people paying 30 to over a hundred bucks to watch, not to mention TV revenue
    their only chance to put paying fans in the seats is to win gold, the US likes a winner, everyone else is a loser
    but you did nail it, this all came about because the NWHL cut their pay and probably won't last unless something drastic happens
    they can't get blood out of a turnip , the NWHL, so they are going after the only organization that does

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