UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Not surprisingly, TyK didn't make the top 3 Hobey Finalists but proud of him nonetheless! (Shameless plug: I still believe he deserves it)

Who's gonna win? My guess: Vecchione...has he been signed yet?

It is an outrage, I tell ya.

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

You should if it results in a disappointed Crotty, Crone, Cockerill or Kotkosalo ending up back on the market. Or of transfers become available. Talent arriving at UNH will close the gap a whole lot more (and faster) than expecting early departures to hurt the team's above them.

BU swapping Farrance for McAvoy, BC replacing White with Tolvanen or PC trading Jakes isn't going to bring them back to the pack. UNH needs to catch them...

You are so cute, thinking UNH can get a late pickup of that talent level. Talented free agents go to programs the level of Penn State (Limoges and Cole Hults), Providence got Hults (before that changed with PC getting Princeton transfer Tom Davis), Michigan (Jacob Slaker). I suppose you could dream about RPI's Bailey Conger, but have you seen any hustle by UNH to get that late talent, like BU's Baillargeon last year (Arizona St.) or Fortunato (Quinnipiac)? Or a late Euro (Denver Borgstrom, PC's Bjorkvist, BC's Mattila twins)?

Woke in middle of the night astounded again at Umile's attempt to sell his final year as a year of transition. He also admitted that he has delegated all of the recruiting to Souza. ("We are fortunate to have Mike Souza here changing the culture in recruiting and gaining more invaluable experience to become the 14th head coach of UNH hockey at the completion of the 2017-18 season".
Scarano said. "I am confident next season will be one in which we build from within, make inroads in recruiting and continue to bolster an exciting future.")

So basically he is saying all of the inroads in recruiting and culture are Mike Souza's but Umile is willing to pitch in on Monday - Thursday, 4-6 pm, and Friday/Saturday 7-10 pm in his quest for $247K (you paying attention to possible titles, Chuck?), but nothing more to change the culture.....

[After the Whistle]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Likely Marks to get the C as more commonly the C seems to sit on a Dman's jersey when there is not a clear leader at forward. I too question whether Eiserman will remain healthy for the season. While that is not really a reason to keep a letter off of him, it may be what keeps him from getting the C. Taking playing time (over all three seasons) out of the thinking process you have to admire what Salvaggio did with his opportunity to play with the top line last year. I realize who was on his other wing and that certainly helps but he lit up the score sheet and did a lot of things you do not see on the score sheet. Point being I do not see him as a dark horse candidate given his attitude and ability that was held back in his first two years.

If we are going 1 C, 2 A's. My prediction is Marks then Eiserman and Salvaggio. Not necessarily how I would pick things but that is my best guess. I have been wrong before... And if anyone outside of the team says they guessed the Captains from two years ago they probably also predicted the 1980 Miracle on ice, The Patriots Super Bowl comeback, and the Bruins 3 goal comeback against the leafs in 2013..

db62
I agree with your prediction. I also guess that I am more comfort than you. Shane has suffered through some unfortunate line assignments in my mind.
He is really much more of a set up guy than a big goal scorer.

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Not surprisingly, TyK didn't make the top 3 Hobey Finalists but proud of him nonetheless! (Shameless plug: I still believe he deserves it)

Who's gonna win? My guess: Vecchione...has he been signed yet?

It is an outrage, I tell ya.

Yeah, I'm disappointed but not terribly surprised. Looking at the other 3 players who did get to the "Hat Trick", I guess the one that makes me scratch my head a little (at least in comparison to Kelleher) is Aston-Reese. The other two guys played on winning teams, one of which is still in the mix at the Frozen Four. Vecchione led the nation in scoring, has been on the radar for his entire career, and played for a team that made the D-1 tourney. And while Northeastern did (narrowly) finish with a winning record, they bowed out of the season a day earlier than UNH did.

I thought Dan outlined a strong argument for Kelleher over ZAR in the NU thread a few weeks ago. But ZAR fared better at the HE awards banquet, so that may have given him a nudge with the Hobey folks less familiar with the two players. And although I don't think last year is supposed to be a consideration, Northeastern did some incredible things late in the season last year, so that may have given ZAR a head start on things this season. Throw in a letter on the front of his jersey, where Kelleher opted against, and maybe it's a lot of little things that all added up to give Aston-Reese the slight edge. Oh well.

FWIW I'm getting a feeling that Butcher wins it this year. I had the same feeling when Leopold won it in '02. Union didn't exactly finish the season on an up note, with two decisive losses in the postseason.

[Dan]

You are so cute, thinking UNH can get a late pickup of that talent level. Talented free agents go to programs the level of Penn State (Limoges and Cole Hults), Providence got Hults (before that changed with PC getting Princeton transfer Tom Davis), Michigan (Jacob Slaker). I suppose you could dream about RPI's Bailey Conger, but have you seen any hustle by UNH to get that late talent, like BU's Baillargeon last year (Arizona St.) or Fortunato (Quinnipiac)? Or a late Euro (Denver Borgstrom, PC's Bjorkvist, BC's Mattila twins)?

Woke in middle of the night astounded again at Umile's attempt to sell his final year as a year of transition. He also admitted that he has delegated all of the recruiting to Souza. ("We are fortunate to have Mike Souza here changing the culture in recruiting and gaining more invaluable experience to become the 14th head coach of UNH hockey at the completion of the 2017-18 season".
Scarano said. "I am confident next season will be one in which we build from within, make inroads in recruiting and continue to bolster an exciting future.")

So basically he is saying all of the inroads in recruiting and culture are Mike Souza's but Umile is willing to pitch in on Monday - Thursday, 4-6 pm, and Friday/Saturday 7-10 pm in his quest for $247K (you paying attention to possible titles, Chuck?), but nothing more to change the culture.....

Hahaha, I was going to ask you yesterday if you thought Conger would be a guy worth moving on. He certainly slides in ahead of a number of forwards on the depth chart currently - but is he worth the money that could potentially be given to a better player in the next year or two. While I'd love to see some quick fixes - I don't want to see UNH simply hit the clearance bin and give away scholarship money that could grab a stud down the road for a slight upgrade. Is Conger a top-six on HE competitor...??

But hey, you know me! Ever the optimist, haha! The Gildon move has got me dreaming big...!!

[Snively65]

Yeah, I'm disappointed but not terribly surprised. Looking at the other 3 players who did get to the "Hat Trick", I guess the one that makes me scratch my head a little (at least in comparison to Kelleher) is Aston-Reese. The other two guys played on winning teams, one of which is still in the mix at the Frozen Four. Vecchione led the nation in scoring, has been on the radar for his entire career, and played for a team that made the D-1 tourney. And while Northeastern did (narrowly) finish with a winning record, they bowed out of the season a day earlier than UNH did.

I thought Dan outlined a strong argument for Kelleher over ZAR in the NU thread a few weeks ago. But ZAR fared better at the HE awards banquet, so that may have given him a nudge with the Hobey folks less familiar with the two players. And although I don't think last year is supposed to be a consideration, Northeastern did some incredible things late in the season last year, so that may have given ZAR a head start on things this season. Throw in a letter on the front of his jersey, where Kelleher opted against, and maybe it's a lot of little things that all added up to give Aston-Reese the slight edge. Oh well.

FWIW I'm getting a feeling that Butcher wins it this year. I had the same feeling when Leopold won it in '02. Union didn't exactly finish the season on an up note, with two decisive losses in the postseason.

But, by end of the conference tourneys, TyK, ZAR, and Vecchione had the same number of points, with Vecchione's linemate Foo just 1 point behind (Foo just went pro after junior year). I realize that the Hobey is based on more than points, and I think that you are spot on that TyK not having the respect of his teammates to make him captain probably hurt his Hobey candidacy in the end. But, what if TyK had Pots on his line this past season, like Vecchione had Foo; 10 to 20 more points for TyK? Or, maybe Pots would have been a top Hobey candidate, too.

Anyway, I think that this thread needs a "BU-together"-type poster to liven things a bit; is there an "UNH-together" poster out there?

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

db62
I agree with your prediction. I also guess that I am more comfort than you. Shane has suffered through some unfortunate line assignments in my mind.
He is really much more of a set up guy than a big goal scorer.

I'm not sure he's either at this point. 29 assists over three seasons doesn't exactly scream "playmaker" to me. UNH had 3 players who had more than 29 assists this season alone (sadly, two have used up their eligibility). I really don't want to pick on the kid, but as I've said before, he had the backing of some folks whose opinions I respect, and I think he has underachieved in his UNH career to date. Maybe he will be the last "senior breakout surprise" player of the Umile era (see Block, Thrush, Correale, etc.) this coming season? I hope so.

Woke in middle of the night astounded again at Umile's attempt to sell his final year as a year of transition. He also admitted that he has delegated all of the recruiting to Souza. ("We are fortunate to have Mike Souza here changing the culture in recruiting and gaining more invaluable experience to become the 14th head coach of UNH hockey at the completion of the 2017-18 season". "Dick Umile is one of collegiate hockey's iconic coaches and, in many ways, is in fact 'UNH Hockey'," Scarano said. "I am confident next season will be one in which we build from within, make inroads in recruiting and continue to bolster an exciting future.")

So basically he is saying all of the inroads in recruiting and culture are Mike Souza's but Umile is willing to pitch in on Monday - Thursday, 4-6 pm, and Friday/Saturday 7-10 pm in his quest for $247K (you paying attention to possible titles, Chuck?), but nothing more to change the culture.....

Again, harsh but fair. Others can disagree, but with the course of events over the last two seasons - and looking ahead to next season - it's really hard to logically conclude that it's not numbers-driven. And if it's not about the NRN (Quest for 600), it's increasingly looking like it's all about the $247K. Coach clearly wants us to believe it's all about "21", but in truth would probably sell anything he owns to get to 14, while many of us will have wished he pulled a 23 skidoo (look it up, young'uns ) before taking the program down to its currently fixed station of 10th place in Hockey East. And BS35+5's genius 3 year plan will have started with UNH averaging about 5,000 per game at The Whitt, and could end with that average dipping below 4,000 for the first time since the days when 4,000 didn't legally fit in the arena. As they say, sometimes the numbers do tell a story.

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Dan
I think you are right that it is a queston of cost. I think Conger's production would be about the same as MacAdams, a good third line guy, and possibly second line his junior/senior years, but also a clear step up from some of the fourth line guys that Borek left us as recruits. He is coming back from a knee injury last year, and has picked it up in past month. He's not throwing away month like legacy of pro player kids on the roster, if they are receiving money.

So, for next year they have enough depth, and the year thereafter they have unfilled spots. With Souza finding a good kid who was underrecruited (Maass), I'm inclined to give him the same chance as he fills those two or three forward spots for 2018, though Conger is a close call.

1.Blackburn
2.Crookshank
3.Grasso
4.Kelleher
5.Vela
6.MacAdams
7.Nazarian
8.Fregona
9.Van Riemsdyk
10.C.Miller
11.Esposito
12.Cipollone
13.Cefalu
14.Sacco

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

But, what if TyK had Pots on his line this past season, like Vecchione had Foo; 10 to 20 more points for TyK? Or, maybe Pots would have been a top Hobey candidate, too.

That's a mighty tempting piece of bait out there, Snively65. With all due respect, I think I'll pass on this one.

[Darius]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Anyway, I think that this thread needs a "BU-together"-type poster to liven things a bit; is there an "UNH-together" poster out there?

snively likes... ?

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Im disappointed for Kelleher - but as I outlined in a post earlier, Im not surprised in the least. The inclusion of Butcher (best player on the best team) at Kelleher's expense, proves the point I made in my TK/Zar post on the NU thread. Playing for a winning team matters. If Kelleher plays at DU he runs away with the team's scoring title and is the Pioneers' Hobey candidate. If he plays at NU or Union, he is the scoring leader and the number one Hobey candidate on either team. Unfortunately, he plays at UNH - a program mired in the muck and ends up bearing the responsibility for all of the failures of the team, and in particular, the team defense...

He's also constantly hurt by his size. In the minds of the voters, who pick up the early media narrative and run with it (lest they seem uninformed), he can't possibly impact both ends of the ice at 5-6, 150. And when his team's defensive performance is abysmal he bears the brunt. As Watcher often argues about building a defense - the best defense is quickly moving the puck out of your own end and possessing it. Kelleher does that extremely well. Additionally, he plays well on the PK and is not the liability he is labeled to be.

There is no better indication of the doubt Kelleher's size has always hung on him than his career comparisons to Anthony Louis. A similar forward, not quite as diminutive, who has been compared to TK since their days at the US NTDP. Louis was the more highly regarded recruit. Louis was drafted. Louis made the WJC team. Louis is the 'coveted' pro prospect. All of this ignores the fact that TK has completely out-produced Louis at every step of their careers. Yet, TK is always ignored and undervalued because of who he's not supposed to be and what he's not supposed to be able to do. Reality be ****ed...

Butcher plays on a loaded DU team - that again, IMO is playing next weekend without him. Vecchione played with Foo. ZAR played with FOUR other All-American caliber forwards at NU. Kelleher played this season at UNH alone. The stunning increase in production of his linemates (as well as the immediate PP impact of Grasso) is due largely to his talent, on-ice vision and ability. He has not been given nearly the credit he deserves for their performances. I would guess that none of the three match their 2016-17 performances next season and it becomes all too clear the impact TK had on the three...

If TK had a DU type team around him or an elite running mate he puts up 75+ points and is in the Hat Trick easily. As long as it wasn't Poturalski, that is. Because, as Snively65 pointed out - Poturalski outscores him (because while Kelleher is great, Poturalski is simply better. Fact.) and is the UNH Hobey candidate.

Kelleher is also hurt by UNH's history of talented forwards. Skilled forwards come to UNH and put up big numbers. Thats what they do. Death, Taxes and high-scoring UNH forwards. So voters discount his performance as that of just another UNH forward on a wide-open offense and the big ice. Whether its true or not.

Finally, UNH's marketing and communications staff strike again. What did they do to help promote Kelleher for Hobey? Very little. I see a youtube.com video with 760 views and almost nothing else. Yesterday, UNH's graphic designer tweeted a picture of a graphic he was going to use IF TK was named to the Hat Trick. What have I said about these departments doing the bare minimum? They sat on their hands and did the minimum. Articles and graphics to re-hash his accomplishments and NOTHING pro-active. Butcher made his push over the last month of the year, with a ton of media coverage due to DU's marketing efforts. TK was in the race all season and UNH did virtually nothing to help him. Let alone how that type of media coverage and information production/leaking might help future recruiting. It was a pathetic effort and a disservice to Kelleher and the program...

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Obviously Foo carried Vecchione. I read it back in 2012

http://itemlive.com/articles/2011/12...s/sports04.txt

"We agreed to do a year in junior hockey. Then they told me they want me to do another year out here (in Nebraska). That's not what I agreed to. One of the problems is they overcommitted. They wanted to push me back. I'm ready to play college hockey right now. UNH is a great school with a great program; they just overcommitted."

http://board.uscho.com/showthread.ph...01#post5450801

dover4345
Dan, you referred to MV as a top recruit, referenced his numbers at Malden Catholic and then went on to compare his stats to that of Sean Collins and Steve Saviano---insinuating they are comparable. I told you then, and I will tell you now---hes not anywhere near the same caliber of player. I know this because I watch alot of highschool/junior hockey and keep up to date with trends in hockey at the junior/highschool level. I do not believe you do the same.

I understand your argument in regards to managing of recruits---but i will tell you the same thing I told you then---the staff was relieved to see him go as they knew they made a mistake giving him a 75% scholorship. If they had a preference I assure you they would have had it work out just as it did. So in that sense it is nothing like Cam Reid or Joey L..

Hokydad and I went at it over this subject back in dec/jan and everyone thought I was nuts because I stated that Vechione did in fact need another year of juniors, his highschool numbers were inflated because the Catholic Conference isnt what it used to be and Vechione benefitted from playing with two more talented linemates in Collier and Fitzgerald. Hokydad stated that Vechione had many offers from schools better than UNH, but has decided not take any of them? Now he is nowhere to be found. Hokydad is Vechione's old coach. Why he would lie about the situation is beyond me. It was not UNH that made the mistake--it was Vechione. He had a 75% scholorship to a top tier program and now he is going to go back to juniors anyway and probably will not get a similiar scholorship to a program of UNH's caliber. Providence tried to walk him on--and he considered it from what I was told. 75% at UNH to potentially walking on at Providence. Vechione should have swallowed his pride and realized that the UNH coaching staff knows what they are doing in evaluating when a player is ready and when he is not. Cleary every other school believes Vechione is not ready for college, or else they would have offered him.

Quaint to look at Dec 2011 comment, and now, knowing what we know, and knowing now who Hockeydad is, is interesting premonition. Word is Borek did not recruit Vecchione, Lassonde did, and Borek was more than happy to defer him.

Hockeydad
There is such a disconnect between the two top coaches at UNH it is mind boggling.

And me back in Dec. 2011. I think we know the answer to the two choices. He clearly had clout, but ....

Originally Posted by NCAA watcher So, Umile who has lifetime status, and learns Gaudreau is going to make a decision in August, suddenly can't coordinate with admissions to over a two-week period. He either has no clout, or he was asleep at the wheel.



[Laleggia] met with UNH coaches in April 2010, at which time "it was decided" he would defer for a year. In September he decommitted. Sound familiar? Not sure if Dover has a basis for saying it was an academic issue, though I note his family is well educated and he had no trouble getting into Denver, and, for what its worth, said he selected them for its academics. Or was it a case of UNH deferring him because he was too young, like they deferred Blake Kessel, Phil DeSimone, Grayson Downing. Sounds like the latter:

Quotes from Laleggia (http://pentictonvees.podbean.com/)
"The coaches (at Denver) really liked me and I felt wanted."
"There are guys who are committing at that young an age and they're having success."
"Mine (situation at UNH) just got a little complicated."

Originally Posted by Greg Ambrose View Post
This leads me to the larger picture. I talked to a good friend of mine last night, someone as passionate about the Wildcats as me and everybody else on this board. His take, and I am beginning to agree, is that things are going to go from bad to worse. It appears that we have the gang that can't shoot straight phenomenon here. Maybe we have it all wrong and Vechionne wasn't the highest rated forward in the class of 2012, but even if he wasn't, he was promised that his path to UNH would be a short one. But now, at the mid point of his junior hockey year he os being asked to slog it out for another full season in Nebraska. Doesn't wash with me. And worse, it sends the wrong message to any other player that UNH recruits and wants to park in the USHL for a year or two. Take it from one who has been in sales for his entire career, if you don't keep your word, if you backtrack, you're toast.

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Dan, you referred to MV as a top recruit, referenced his numbers at Malden Catholic and then went on to compare his stats to that of Sean Collins and Steve Saviano---insinuating they are comparable. I told you then, and I will tell you now---hes not anywhere near the same caliber of player. I know this because I watch alot of highschool/junior hockey and keep up to date with trends in hockey at the junior/highschool level. I do not believe you do the same.

I understand your argument in regards to managing of recruits---but i will tell you the same thing I told you then---the staff was relieved to see him go as they knew they made a mistake giving him a 75% scholorship. If they had a preference I assure you they would have had it work out just as it did. So in that sense it is nothing like Cam Reid or Joey L..

Boy oh boy, imagine watching SO much high school and junior hockey and still being so wrong. Revisiting my Vecchione/Collins/Saviano comparison...

SS - 50-67--117
SC - 77-96--173
MV - 71-105--176 (and in an era where overall scoring is notably down!)

If Dover were to reappear, Im sure he would credit Vecchione's additional year in juniors as the reason for his success. I always get a good laugh at these arguments. When a player like MV or Poturalski has a big freshman year, crediting they delayed enrollment is silly. It probably indicates they would have been ready to contribute the year before. As if, Clayton Keller for example, had delayed his FR season until next year (and dominated) we'd argue he wouldn't have been ready in 2016-17. Give me a break...

This is what happens, when you'd rather shape your argument than recognize reality. The truth is irrelevant, anything to defend the coaches...

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Revisiting 2011 sure was the canary in the coalmine for this, complete with Borek having deferred (and lost), two Hobey Finalists, a disconnect between the top two coaches, and a disengaged Umile unwilling to ruin his vacation time.

It was a slow trainwreck, and good old Marty did nothing to try and wake the engineer, or replace him.

edit: and still has done nothing, until the engineer decides he's hit enough cars, demands to appoint his own novice engineer, and insists the junior engineer can't drive the train until he's learned from him how to drive drunk.

[Darius]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

knowing now who Hockeydad is

???