UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Thanks for sharing that I know Brett has had a good season! Great hockey night ahead my head is spinning!!

Speaking of D-men winning the Hobey, did I mention that Pesce's teammate Hanifin is a -20, for a 41 plus/minus differential between the two?

[Dan]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I made a brief post about Tirone/Clark in the recruiting thread and now I'm really worked up about DU (the coach). I was too young to really understand the final Holt years, but some of our more experienced posters will have to let me know if Holt even remotely approaches DU in terms of self-inflicted damage to the program on his way out the door...

What set me off was reliving the final game of the UML series where DU gave Tirone the option of staying in. First of all, he owes his allegiance to the TEAM and not one specific player. It's his decision. Not Tirone's. When your goalie gives up 3-4 quick ones in a season deciding contest, an accountable coach pulls him - if only to send a message to the rest of the team and cling to the minute chance that the wake up call leads to a win. You don't throw in the towel and cater to you're goaltenders pride...

Tirone has simply earned nothing through his play. His unchecked reign as a starter has really hurt the program. The team and Clark certainly deserve to know if - at the very least a competition - would have led to better play and results. Unfortunately, the Tirone/Clark issue is just one in a long line of Umile decisions that have cost his team's and the program from better results....

* Lets start with TKs freshman season - the last season in which UNH was remotely close to competing for an NCAA tournament bid. A nice little team with good goaltending and a legitimate defensive unit, but not much scoring past the Goumas, Sorkin, Willows line. So what does Umile do? He saddles his second most talented forward (Downing) with Speelman and Silengo - guys who have earned it - and relegates his uber-skilled freshman to limited minutes on a fourth line checking unit. One can only wonder if a line-up based on actual ability, featuring a second line of Downing, Correale, Kelleher lifts UNH into the tourney that year...

* Flash forward to 2015-16, when Umile tries to ram a first-line of career fourth-liners down HEs throat for two-thirds of the season as UNH fights it's way to its worst season in decades. He also resisted pulling a flailing Tirone until he absolutely had to, indicating to me that at the first slight bump in the road for Clark (injury or not), Tirone would have been back in net full-time for good (record or production be ****ed)...

* This is also the season he ignores Foegele's development. After a strong freshman season, WF is passed over for a key role for players who can't sniff his talent or impact ability. He jumps to MJ where he dominates and UNH fans are left wondering, "what if we actually played our best line-ups". FYI, Foegele signed with Carolina recently for a 250K signing bonus...

* This season, Salvaggio explodes for 23 goals and McNicholas posts 43 points. Now, we all understand they played with Kelleher, but answer me this - before this seasonwhy did Umile only bother to pull them out of the stadium seats when he absolutely had to? And when he did, why did he only give them sparing shifts on the fourth line. Seems clear they would have been better fits than the 'trustworthy' guys who contributed very little outside of being in the right spot when they racked up their minuses. McNicholas' talent has always been apparent to me. Many others liked Salvaggio quite a bit. Umile can't see it everyday in practice? Or does he just not want to...

Fair or not, I will remember Umile - in large part - as a coach who stuck with 'his guys' to the detriment of other players development, the team's W/L record and the program's best interests. These and many other decisions were, and are, inexcusable.

Not to mention his refusal to learn UNH admissions policies or to ensure someone (anyone) was monitoring recruits academically or bother to even get to know recruits leading to numerous recent decommits (Masonious, Ryzcek, Farabee, O'Neill).

Not to mention his selfish power play to demand a final three year extension and hand-pick his own inexperienced successor. If Souza fails, that's just another black eye for Umile and his out of touch heavy handedness...

The program is in a bad spot, but in-game, in-season and in-general DU has continuously made things worse with his stubborn coaching decisions. If he's so concerned about SIX MORE wins, I know where he should look first...

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I made a brief post about Tirone/Clark in the recruiting thread and now I'm really worked up about DU (the coach). I was too young to really understand the final Holt years, but some of our more experienced posters will have to let me know if Holt even remotely approaches DU in terms of self-inflicted damage to the program on his way out the door...

What set me off was reliving the final game of the UML series where DU gave Tirone the option of staying in. First of all, he owes his allegiance to the TEAM and not one specific player. It's his decision. Not Tirone's. When your goalie gives up 3-4 quick ones in a season deciding contest, an accountable coach pulls him - if only to send a message to the rest of the team and cling to the minute chance that the wake up call leads to a win. You don't throw in the towel and cater to you're goaltenders pride...

Tirone has simply earned nothing through his play. His unchecked reign as a starter has really hurt the program. The team and Clark certainly deserve to know if - at the very least a competition - would have led to better play and results. Unfortunately, the Tirone/Clark issue is just one in a long line of Umile decisions that have cost his team's and the program from better results....

* Lets start with TKs freshman season - the last season in which UNH was remotely close to competing for an NCAA tournament bid. A nice little team with good goaltending and a legitimate defensive unit, but not much scoring past the Goumas, Sorkin, Willows line. So what does Umile do? He saddles his second most talented forward (Downing) with Speelman and Silengo - guys who have earned it - and relegates his uber-skilled freshman to limited minutes on a fourth line checking unit. One can only wonder if a line-up based on actual ability, featuring a second line of Downing, Correale, Kelleher lifts UNH into the tourney that year...

* Flash forward to 2015-16, when Umile tries to ram a first-line of career fourth-liners down HEs throat for two-thirds of the season as UNH fights it's way to its worst season in decades. He also resisted pulling a flailing Tirone until he absolutely had to, indicating to me that at the first slight bump in the road for Clark (injury or not), Tirone would have been back in net full-time for good (record or production be ****ed)...

* This is also the season he ignores Foegele's development. After a strong freshman season, WF is passed over for a key role for players who can't sniff his talent or impact ability. He jumps to MJ where he dominates and UNH fans are left wondering, "what if we actually played our best line-ups". FYI, Foegele signed with Carolina recently for a 250K signing bonus...

* This season, Salvaggio explodes for 23 goals and McNicholas posts 43 points. Now, we all understand they played with Kelleher, but answer me this - before this seasonwhy did Umile only bother to pull them out of the stadium seats when he absolutely had to? And when he did, why did he only give them sparing shifts on the fourth line. Seems clear they would have been better fits than the 'trustworthy' guys who contributed very little outside of being in the right spot when they racked up their minuses. McNicholas' talent has always been apparent to me. Many others liked Salvaggio quite a bit. Umile can't see it everyday in practice? Or does he just not want to...

Fair or not, I will remember Umile - in large part - as a coach who stuck with 'his guys' to the detriment of other players development, the team's W/L record and the program's best interests. These and many other decisions were, and are, inexcusable.

Not to mention his refusal to learn UNH admissions policies or to ensure someone (anyone) was monitoring recruits academically or bother to even get to know recruits leading to numerous recent decommits (Masonious, Ryzcek, Farabee, O'Neill).

Not to mention his selfish power play to demand a final three year extension and hand-pick his own inexperienced successor. If Souza fails, that's just another black eye for Umile and his out of touch heavy handedness...

The program is in a bad spot, but in-game, in-season and in-general DU has continuously made things worse with his stubborn coaching decisions. If he's so concerned about SIX MORE wins, I know where he should look first...

Dan, I have vivid memories of Tyler Kelleher's Freshman year as that was really my first full year of following. I can remember well known hockey bloggers who were always surprised, and eventually, disgusted with the lack of TyK's under utilization of his talent. Sigh; bums me out he is gone I feel like I hardly got the chance to really appreciate his abilities. (And those of the others you mention).

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Lots of meat in this post to chew on. I'll chime in point by point, but this was a well-thought-out post ...

I made a brief post about Tirone/Clark in the recruiting thread and now I'm really worked up about DU (the coach). I was too young to really understand the final Holt years, but some of our more experienced posters will have to let me know if Holt even remotely approaches DU in terms of self-inflicted damage to the program on his way out the door...

Not comparable. Once Coach Holt felt the ship sinking, he didn't look to extend his deal. He understood there was a lot of change rippling across D-1 hockey at the time, and got out of the way. He did probably have some say in the decision to appoint Kullen (his "Souza") over O'Connor (his "Stewart") as successor though.

What set me off was reliving the final game of the UML series where DU gave Tirone the option of staying in. First of all, he owes his allegiance to the TEAM and not one specific player. It's his decision. Not Tirone's. When your goalie gives up 3-4 quick ones in a season deciding contest, an accountable coach pulls him - if only to send a message to the rest of the team and cling to the minute chance that the wake up call leads to a win. You don't throw in the towel and cater to you're goaltenders pride...

Agree 100%. The only thing I read into that is Coach plans to pick up next October where we left off this March, and didn't want to hurt his go-to guy's feelings. Not good news for Robinson, even worse news for Clark.

Tirone has simply earned nothing through his play. His unchecked reign as a starter has really hurt the program. The team and Clark certainly deserve to know if - at the very least a competition - would have led to better play and results. Unfortunately, the Tirone/Clark issue is just one in a long line of Umile decisions that have cost his team's and the program from better results...

I answered this in the recruiting thread. I think that's harsh on Tirone. Clark has had his chances - admittedly not many, but they've been there - and he's simply whiffed on almost every opportunity.

* Lets start with TKs freshman season - the last season in which UNH was remotely close to competing for an NCAA tournament bid. A nice little team with good goaltending and a legitimate defensive unit, but not much scoring past the Goumas, Sorkin, Willows line. So what does Umile do? He saddles his second most talented forward (Downing) with Speelman and Silengo - guys who have earned it - and relegates his uber-skilled freshman to limited minutes on a fourth line checking unit. One can only wonder if a line-up based on actual ability, featuring a second line of Downing, Correale, Kelleher lifts UNH into the tourney that year...

Terrific point, with even better ones to follow. Is this second-guessing? Probably, if viewed only as an isolated instance ... but with Coach's pattern of keeping talented younger guys down in favor of journeyman types, it's a very fair (and very accurate) criticism in the big picture.

* Flash forward to 2015-16, when Umile tries to ram a first-line of career fourth-liners down HEs throat for two-thirds of the season as UNH fights it's way to its worst season in decades. He also resisted pulling a flailing Tirone until he absolutely had to, indicating to me that at the first slight bump in the road for Clark (injury or not), Tirone would have been back in net full-time for good (record or production be ****ed)...

As has been discussed at length, probably the worst on-ice decision Coach ever made in his career ... if only because after it was very clear this wasn't working, he clung to the decision almost into February. Definitely a situation where Coach made up his mind, "hey, look at how I've gotten great Year 4 production from unexpected places in the past, watch this slick move", forgetting all the while that he'd never put three 4th liners (too often "5th liners") together and expected them to skate top line time against the best players on the opposing teams. Oh, and two of these three players were also saddled with leadership letters. This was the definition of self-inflicted damage to the max.

* This is also the season he ignores Foegele's development. After a strong freshman season, WF is passed over for a key role for players who can't sniff his talent or impact ability. He jumps to MJ where he dominates and UNH fans are left wondering, "what if we actually played our best line-ups". FYI, Foegele signed with Carolina recently for a 250K signing bonus...

Still not thrilled that the kid quit - in retrospect, even if he stayed, he probably would have been right behind Poturalski on his way out the door regardless - but this just added to the folly of the previous decision above.

* This season, Salvaggio explodes for 23 goals and McNicholas posts 43 points. Now, we all understand they played with Kelleher, but answer me this - before this seasonwhy did Umile only bother to pull them out of the stadium seats when he absolutely had to? And when he did, why did he only give them sparing shifts on the fourth line. Seems clear they would have been better fits than the 'trustworthy' guys who contributed very little outside of being in the right spot when they racked up their minuses. McNicholas' talent has always been apparent to me. Many others liked Salvaggio quite a bit. Umile can't see it everyday in practice? Or does he just not want to...

I think this may be the best point of the bunch (and that's a tight competition here). As good as Kelleher is/was ... unless his name was Gretzky or Lemieux, you don't turn scrubs into 40 goal scorers overnight. The idea that Salvaggio and McNicholas were left in the stands for huge chunks of their first two seasons, at the expense of the "senior first checking line" and even the likes of Eiserman, Nazarian, Vela and (especially) Miller is mind-blowing. Again, stubbornly clinging to past approaches, and not paying close enough attention.

Fair or not, I will remember Umile - in large part - as a coach who stuck with 'his guys' to the detriment of other players development, the team's W/L record and the program's best interests. These and many other decisions were, and are, inexcusable.

It worked early in his career, so he stuck with it, and yes, it came back to haunt him at the end of his career.

Not to mention his refusal to learn UNH admissions policies or to ensure someone (anyone) was monitoring recruits academically or bother to even get to know recruits leading to numerous recent decommits (Masonious, Ryzcek, Farabee, O'Neill).

Asleep at the switch, that's someone else's job, etc. Again, got away with it early, caught up with him in the end.

Not to mention his selfish power play to demand a final three year extension and hand-pick his own inexperienced successor. If Souza fails, that's just another black eye for Umile and his out of touch heavy handedness...

Spot on. I'll be the first with the mea culpa's to Umile if Souza works out, but that's what's on the line.

The program is in a bad spot, but in-game, in-season and in-general DU has continuously made things worse with his stubborn coaching decisions. If he's so concerned about FOURTEEN MORE wins, I know where he should look first...

Fixed your post.

It really does boil down to stubbornness, or even to the root of stubbornness. Begins with an "A" ...

[Snively65]

I made a brief post about Tirone/Clark in the recruiting thread and now I'm really worked up about DU (the coach). I was too young to really understand the final Holt years, but some of our more experienced posters will have to let me know if Holt even remotely approaches DU in terms of self-inflicted damage to the program on his way out the door...

What set me off was reliving the final game of the UML series where DU gave Tirone the option of staying in. First of all, he owes his allegiance to the TEAM and not one specific player. It's his decision. Not Tirone's. When your goalie gives up 3-4 quick ones in a season deciding contest, an accountable coach pulls him - if only to send a message to the rest of the team and cling to the minute chance that the wake up call leads to a win. You don't throw in the towel and cater to you're goaltenders pride...

Tirone has simply earned nothing through his play. His unchecked reign as a starter has really hurt the program. The team and Clark certainly deserve to know if - at the very least a competition - would have led to better play and results. Unfortunately, the Tirone/Clark issue is just one in a long line of Umile decisions that have cost his team's and the program from better results....

* Lets start with TKs freshman season - the last season in which UNH was remotely close to competing for an NCAA tournament bid. A nice little team with good goaltending and a legitimate defensive unit, but not much scoring past the Goumas, Sorkin, Willows line. So what does Umile do? He saddles his second most talented forward (Downing) with Speelman and Silengo - guys who have earned it - and relegates his uber-skilled freshman to limited minutes on a fourth line checking unit. One can only wonder if a line-up based on actual ability, featuring a second line of Downing, Correale, Kelleher lifts UNH into the tourney that year...

* Flash forward to 2015-16, when Umile tries to ram a first-line of career fourth-liners down HEs throat for two-thirds of the season as UNH fights it's way to its worst season in decades. He also resisted pulling a flailing Tirone until he absolutely had to, indicating to me that at the first slight bump in the road for Clark (injury or not), Tirone would have been back in net full-time for good (record or production be ****ed)...

* This is also the season he ignores Foegele's development. After a strong freshman season, WF is passed over for a key role for players who can't sniff his talent or impact ability. He jumps to MJ where he dominates and UNH fans are left wondering, "what if we actually played our best line-ups". FYI, Foegele signed with Carolina recently for a 250K signing bonus...

* This season, Salvaggio explodes for 23 goals and McNicholas posts 43 points. Now, we all understand they played with Kelleher, but answer me this - before this seasonwhy did Umile only bother to pull them out of the stadium seats when he absolutely had to? And when he did, why did he only give them sparing shifts on the fourth line. Seems clear they would have been better fits than the 'trustworthy' guys who contributed very little outside of being in the right spot when they racked up their minuses. McNicholas' talent has always been apparent to me. Many others liked Salvaggio quite a bit. Umile can't see it everyday in practice? Or does he just not want to...

Fair or not, I will remember Umile - in large part - as a coach who stuck with 'his guys' to the detriment of other players development, the team's W/L record and the program's best interests. These and many other decisions were, and are, inexcusable.

Not to mention his refusal to learn UNH admissions policies or to ensure someone (anyone) was monitoring recruits academically or bother to even get to know recruits leading to numerous recent decommits (Masonious, Ryzcek, Farabee, O'Neill).

Not to mention his selfish power play to demand a final three year extension and hand-pick his own inexperienced successor. If Souza fails, that's just another black eye for Umile and his out of touch heavy handedness...

The program is in a bad spot, but in-game, in-season and in-general DU has continuously made things worse with his stubborn coaching decisions. If he's so concerned about SIX MORE wins, I know where he should look first...

And, apparently dismissed by you and Chuck, other than his failure to pull his goalie in the last game of this past season and his playing scrub seniors on the first line and first PP unit two years ago, I think that he has been a mediocre in-game coach overall, at best, despite being provided gifted players by exceptional recruiters for over a decade from the mid-1990s to mid-2000s. Completely outcoached, game in, game out, including critical post-season games against the likes of Niagara, RIT, and others. Simply pathetic.

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

Not dismissed, but overtaken by his other failures as a coach. The top of the list is a complete lack of self-awareness about his own faults. Back when he had a chance to hire a younger assistant, one we all knew was needed, he took the opportunity to get an older coach, Tortorella. It encapsulates his favoritism of old "his guys" over youth. He doesn't trust players, so its no wonder they always played tight in key games.

[Dan]

And, apparently dismissed by you and Chuck, other than his failure to pull his goalie in the last game of this past season and his playing scrub seniors on the first line and first PP unit two years ago, I think that he has been a mediocre in-game coach overall, at best, despite being provided gifted players by exceptional recruiters for over a decade between the mid-1990s to mid-2000s. Completely outcoached, game in, game out, including critical post-season games against the likes of Niagara, RIT, and others. Simply pathetic.

No, I wouldn't discount that at all. I certainly think a big argument can be made that his lack of trust in young players, his personal tightness in games and resistance to any changes to his approach certainly affect his in game coaching resume. It's a good point.

Still, I think a much bigger coaching issue in the sport of hockey is not putting players in a position to be successful and not putting your best players in those key roles. When you don't, or you lose you're top recruiters and talent falls off, you're in-game coaching ability (unless it's through the roof elite) doesn't really matter as much because the just players can't compete (even at their best) when they're just not good enough or in the wrong role...

[Darius]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

... What set me off was reliving the final game of the UML series where DU gave Tirone the option of staying in. First of all, he owes his allegiance to the TEAM and not one specific player. It's his decision. Not Tirone's. When your goalie gives up 3-4 quick ones in a season deciding contest, an accountable coach pulls him - if only to send a message to the rest of the team and cling to the minute chance that the wake up call leads to a win. You don't throw in the towel and cater to you're goaltenders pride...

Good post Dan. I understand, but disagree with this point, thinking that the message was, "I am not pulling the goalie unless I can pull the entire team". We sucked and were outplayed by a better team that night. Collectively.

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

And, apparently dismissed by you and Chuck, other than his failure to pull his goalie in the last game of this past season and his playing scrub seniors on the first line and first PP unit two years ago, I think that he has been a mediocre in-game coach overall, at best, despite being provided gifted players by exceptional recruiters for over a decade from the mid-1990s to mid-2000s. Completely outcoached, game in, game out, including critical post-season games against the likes of Niagara, RIT, and others. Simply pathetic.

Not dismissed at all, and a very valid point Snively65. As our caustic friend EJ Smith so aptly put it a few weeks ago ... Coach has let the program slip so far in so many other areas - and we're so far removed from the big important high-profile games at the end of the season - that we've simply forgotten how bad Coach was as an in-game coach in those situations. Cue an old-fashioned 8-1 "Umiliation" in the Game 3 UML finale.

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I must say, that was a fun game to watch on TV tonight; not as exciting for me as seeing the 2005 finale live at the Garden, especially the last 90 seconds, but very good nonetheless. Nice sweep of three major individual awards for the Pio's also. And, how fitting that their coach was the last one to score a hat trick in a NC game until now, IIRC?

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I must say, that was a fun game to watch on TV tonight; not as exciting for me as seeing the 2005 finale live at the Garden, especially the last 90 seconds, but very good nonetheless. Nice sweep of three major individual awards for the Pio's also. And, how fitting that their coach was the last one to score a hat trick in a NC game until now, IIRC?

I'm almost afraid to wander over into the UMaine thread today. Can you imagine ... Red over Monty? Ouch ...

[chickod]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I'm almost afraid to wander over into the UMaine thread today. Can you imagine ... Red over Monty? Ouch ...

It's OK. Most of the venting has been done already. Many knew it was highly likely that Denver would win so the discussions began about a month ago. I think the topic has sort of burned itself out. So it's safe to venture there...

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

I must say, that was a fun game to watch on TV tonight; not as exciting for me as seeing the 2005 finale live at the Garden, especially the last 90 seconds, but very good nonetheless. Nice sweep of three major individual awards for the Pio's also. And, how fitting that their coach was the last one to score a hat trick in a NC game until now, IIRC?

It was a great game; amazing skill those players have, super goal tending. Too bad about that Denver player who got hurt. Wow do those players hit. Denver just so dominate; not sure anyone out there would've given them a better game than UMD. Welp, the off season really IS happening after all. What do we know about next year's schedule? Banquet in 2 weeks...captain (s?) unveiling.

[walrus]

I'm almost afraid to wander over into the UMaine thread today. Can you imagine ... Red over Monty? Ouch ...

Monty had an issue that umaine didn't like. He never had a chance. The game showed us how far our teams are away. Maine is a joke compared to both of those teams

[Snively65]

Re: UNH Wildcats 2017 Off-season: The Clash Question

FF back to Boston in 2021 (sigh), St Paul in 2018 (sigh), Buffalo in 2020 (sigh).