TV: The Golden Era Reborn

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

A guy had a great line in tonight's episode. "It's very hard to dispel ignorance if you retain arrogance."

Great line. Fantastic.

[SJHovey]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

IMO, it was one of the first, if NOT the first time US forces faced very odd strategies. Saw a special on the History Channel a couple years ago about "The Art Of War" by Sun Tzu, and the Vietnam War was one of the wars they highlighted. Cited some specific examples where the US was simply out-smarted. We were used to just facing off and let's rumble, bruh (in general). Whoops.

As one soldier pointed out in one of the episodes, the military always starts out fighting a war in the exact same way they fought the last war. They usually discover that warfare has changed, and the question becomes how quickly can your army adapt.

A North Vietnamese soldier explained the plans of their commanders quite nicely. He said their commanders told them "we have to fight them by grabbing their belt buckles. We grab their belt buckles, we win. We don't grab their belt buckles, we will be killed by their mortar fire and their planes."

Burns has done a really nice job thus far laying out the deadly cocktail that was Vietnam. A fear of encroaching Communism without asking the question, "Who farking cares if the communists take over Vietnam? It's Vietnam for crying out loud." The American Exceptionalism that expanded into arrogance through the years following WWII. An unconventional battlefield that didn't permit you to measure wins and losses by ground gained or cities captured, but required creation of a new measuring tool (body count) that only encouraged lying to save face, and once you start lying about that, where does the lying stop?

It will be interesting to see if this documentary changes American opinion about its Vietnam vets. Getting a little late now, but I suppose better late than never.

[joecct]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

It was a good idea that was botched by Washington.

Vietnam was a micro managed war. IIRC, LBJ was looking at photos daily deciding where to bomb. Everything was reduced to numbers. The big thing was "body count". But the VC and NVA were dragging off their dead, so we were using math to decide how many commies died.

Hire competent people, give them a job to do, and get the hell out of the way.

And don't forget the corruption that was rampant in South Vietnam.

[French Rage]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

Everything was reduced to numbers. The big thing was "body count".

I thought it was interesting how McNamara was a former executive from Ford and a systems analyst whiz, and they brought him in to run the Defense Department that way. Now don't get me wrong, making sure things in the military and done logically and efficiently can be a very good thing, especially when compared to the monarch and a bunch of nobles shooting from the hip in days or yore, but as we saw from Vietnam trying to reduce everything to statistics that can be analyzed is going too far in the other direction. As one of the talking heads pointed out, among all of their numbers they missed what impact they were having on the people of Vietnam.

Also, France, if you want your empire, don't do such a **** job of holding on to it in the first place.

[Handyman]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

As one soldier pointed out in one of the episodes, the military always starts out fighting a war in the exact same way they fought the last war. They usually discover that warfare has changed, and the question becomes how quickly can your army adapt.

A North Vietnamese soldier explained the plans of their commanders quite nicely. He said their commanders told them "we have to fight them by grabbing their belt buckles. We grab their belt buckles, we win. We don't grab their belt buckles, we will be killed by their mortar fire and their planes."

Burns has done a really nice job thus far laying out the deadly cocktail that was Vietnam. A fear of encroaching Communism without asking the question, "Who farking cares if the communists take over Vietnam? It's Vietnam for crying out loud." The American Exceptionalism that expanded into arrogance through the years following WWII. An unconventional battlefield that didn't permit you to measure wins and losses by ground gained or cities captured, but required creation of a new measuring tool (body count) that only encouraged lying to save face, and once you start lying about that, where does the lying stop?

It will be interesting to see if this documentary changes American opinion about its Vietnam vets. Getting a little late now, but I suppose better late than never.

I just heard Burns interviewed about the series...this was a passion project and something that hit very close to home for him. And the best part was the fluidity, they would interview someone who would then interview others. Sometimes the interpreters gave them info. Then they would interview someone from one side of a battle, then vice versa and let each side know what the other side was thinking. Very cool stuff.

[burd]

It was a good idea that was botched by Washington.

Vietnam was a micro managed war. IIRC, LBJ was looking at photos daily deciding where to bomb. Everything was reduced to numbers. The big thing was "body count". But the VC and NVA were dragging off their dead, so we were using math to decide how many commies died.

Hire competent people, give them a job to do, and get the hell out of the way.

And don't forget the corruption that was rampant in South Vietnam.

It was a terrible idea.

[unofan]

It was a terrible idea.

I was gonna say, I thought there was pretty much universal agreement that Vietnam was a horrendous decision.

[Handyman]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

Well joe does think Climate Change is overblown because he once read an article in the Telegraph so take his thoughts with a grain...

Vietnam was a terrible idea from the word jump.

[SonofSouthie]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

The old Domino Theory.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

Vietnam was even dumber and less justified than the Second Gulf War.

If we're very lucky, ISIS will be defeated and Iraqis will also transition to a one-party "market-socialist" oil state and welcome American tourists with open arms in about 40 years.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

Vietnam was even dumber and less justified than the Second Gulf War.

If we're very lucky, ISIS will be defeated and Iraqis will also transition to a one-party "market-socialist" oil state and welcome American tourists with open arms in about 40 years.

Only if Jeremy Clarkson gets to ride through Northern Iraq on a stars and stripes motorcycle blaring Born in the USA in 40 years too.

[joecct]

Well joe does think Climate Change is overblown because he once read an article in the Telegraph so take his thoughts with a grain...

Vietnam was a terrible idea from the word jump.

How old are you Handy?

If you were not alive in the 60s you would not understand the time and the place as JFK wrote.

Let me explain. Southie is correct. The U.S. would stop at nothing to stop the spread of Communism. Dictators were OK, as long as they were our dictators. Start slipping and you got replaced via a coup. JFK kept our involvement small, like Truman did in Greece.

So the idea of stopping the Communists from taking over Indo China was US policy from Ike to Nixon. Ike and JFK knew a land guerilla war in Asia needed to be kept small. LBJ, on the other hand, had different ideas. We succeeded in Korea, against a higher mechanized force, therefore we should win in Vietnam against a lesser equipped army.

Once the balloon went up after tbe Gulf of Tonkin resolution, we should have won and kept the NVA North of the DMZ, but mismanagement from DC kept the field commanders fighting with one hand tied behind their backs. The Viet Cong were using Cambodia as a base. Could not attack them once the VC crossed the border. We could not cross the DMZ. You couldn't shoot unless shot at. The grunts knew how to win. They were let down by the leadership.

It was a war of capturing the hearts and minds. Guess what? The commies won that one. They convinced the American left that the peaceful people of Vietnam were innocent as purely driven snow. The left bought it - hook, line, and sinker. Our soldiers were called baby killers and spat on in airports returning from the front. Jane Fonda, may she sentenced to watching Barbarella non stop in Hell, went to Hanoi regularly and even posed for a picture with an anti aircraft gun - a weapon that was used to shoot down Americans. Commies good. US bad.

The US won the Tet Offensive - militarily, but lost politicaly when Uncle Walter went on national TV and said he didn't think the US could win the war. At that point, it became an end game. The white king would be checkmated, the number of moves would have to be played out but the result was inevitable.

And how did communism play out in Indo China? Reeducation camps, Pol Pot's massacres, boat people fleeing the regimes. A veritable people's paradise.

Yep - it was the right idea. The implementation by LBJ stunk to high heavens.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

We succeeded in Korea.

We did? How'd that work out?

[joecct]

We did? How'd that work out?

None of the Kims have set up permanent residence in Seoul. I'd count that as a win for the SK people.

[bigblue_dl]

Re: TV: The Golden Era Reborn

None of the Kims have set up permanent residence in Seoul. I'd count that as a win for the SK people.

So 50% is good enough. Gotcha.