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Thread: 2017 Pairwise thread

  1. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson on the Glass View Post
    Once again, I don't care where Harvard ended up this time, or any other time as long as it is fair. If the Crimson are going to win, they can do that anywhere. What is bothersome is the position allegedly held by the NCAA itself and reportedly stated by Providence officials about its special treatment as a non-host school. That's all. I don't know how they came to this (regardless of PWR rank) status level that the other 15 teams do not seem to enjoy.
    But, how is it a status that other teams don't enjoy? It happens when any Boston area team gets switched into Worcester. It happens when any ECAC team gets switched into Albany. It happens when a Western team stays West or an Eastern team stays East for attendance purposes. These decisions are made all the time. Attendance is a factor, like it or not.

    The issue with Providence seems to be the game is in city limits and not an hour up the road. Which has no tangible difference from any other 'placement' we see all the time except actual (and minimal) mileage.

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Crimson on the Glass View Post
    Once again, I don't care where Harvard ended up this time, or any other time as long as it is fair. If the Crimson are going to win, they can do that anywhere. What is bothersome is the position allegedly held by the NCAA itself and reportedly stated by Providence officials about its special treatment as a non-host school. That's all. I don't know how they came to this (regardless of PWR rank) status level that the other 15 teams do not seem to enjoy.
    This is one reason I am interested in seeing where the next regionals will be played. Usually, we know more than a year in advance, and there were some rumblings about campus sites coming back.

    I, for one, would be more in favor of:

    Top 4 teams host the weekend. Then the committee decides the dates, times, and adjusts the brackets accordingly. I know it would be a big advantage for, say, Minnesota to play at Mariucci, or UMD at Amsoil. But, at least everyone would admit they earned it. This year's NoDak and Prov brackets are not really appropriate.

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    But, how is it a status that other teams don't enjoy? It happens when any Boston area team gets switched into Worcester. It happens when any ECAC team gets switched into Albany. It happens when a Western team stays West or an Eastern team stays East for attendance purposes. These decisions are made all the time. Attendance is a factor, like it or not.

    The issue with Providence seems to be the game is in city limits and not an hour up the road. Which has no tangible difference from any other 'placement' we see all the time except actual (and minimal) mileage.
    I think most of the issues is Providence gets treated as a defacto host when they haven't put in the work to host.
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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
    This is one reason I am interested in seeing where the next regionals will be played. Usually, we know more than a year in advance, and there were some rumblings about campus sites coming back.

    I, for one, would be more in favor of:

    Top 4 teams host the weekend. Then the committee decides the dates, times, and adjusts the brackets accordingly. I know it would be a big advantage for, say, Minnesota to play at Mariucci, or UMD at Amsoil. But, at least everyone would admit they earned it. This year's NoDak and Prov brackets are not really appropriate.
    What do you mean by appropriate? The Fargo bracket is bracket integrity to a T. Sounds like you have more of an issue with North Dakota being able to host in Fargo.

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    What overall seed # was Providence in 2015? I know Miami was #4

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
    This is one reason I am interested in seeing where the next regionals will be played. Usually, we know more than a year in advance, and there were some rumblings about campus sites coming back.

    I, for one, would be more in favor of:

    Top 4 teams host the weekend. Then the committee decides the dates, times, and adjusts the brackets accordingly. I know it would be a big advantage for, say, Minnesota to play at Mariucci, or UMD at Amsoil. But, at least everyone would admit they earned it. This year's NoDak and Prov brackets are not really appropriate.
    Usually it's on the NCAA website. I haven't seen it yet and I'm wondering if that's because they are considering going back to campus sites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    What overall seed # was Providence in 2015? I know Miami was #4
    PC was 15 - last team in. In terms of PWR, Miami caught a break playing two seeds lower than integrity would dictate. PC got hot at the right time.

    Quinnipiac was shipped west instead. Likely happens in Worcester too (without complaint), but you could certainly make the argument PC should have been shipped. Regardless, Miami should have won. Miami vs Q is still a one seed playing a four in its own backyard...

    The other thing that gets lost I think - is hockey's tourney essentially starts with its sweet sixteen. One seeds are going to lose, less due to location and more due to the fact that every team in the tourney is capable of winning it all...
    Last edited by Dan; 03-20-2017 at 12:12 PM.

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    I'm torn on that issue. I want great atmospheres for these games but for the people that do want to go to these games, could make it a lot harder for them if you go back to on campus sites (depending on format).

    If you want to keep this thing at 16 teams how about you go back to two regionals, six teams in each region. Top 8 automatically go to the regionals. Remaining 8 teams play the week before in an opening round on campus game/series. The 4 winners advance to the regionals.

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan View Post
    PC was 15 - last team in. In terms of PWR, Miami caught a break playing two seeds lower than integrity would dictate. PC got hot at the right time.
    Agreed. I think it had more to do with Miami playing horribly than anything else. Pretty sure Providence lost in the HE QFs at home against UNH. Miami simply gagged.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    Agreed. I think it had more to do with Miami playing horribly than anything else. Pretty sure Providence lost in the HE QFs at home against UNH. Miami simply gagged.
    2015: didn't Miami fall behind 7-2 or something, then pulled the goalie, staging a furious rally, and lost 7-6?

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Numbers View Post
    This is one reason I am interested in seeing where the next regionals will be played. Usually, we know more than a year in advance, and there were some rumblings about campus sites coming back.

    I, for one, would be more in favor of:

    Top 4 teams host the weekend. Then the committee decides the dates, times, and adjusts the brackets accordingly. I know it would be a big advantage for, say, Minnesota to play at Mariucci, or UMD at Amsoil. But, at least everyone would admit they earned it. This year's NoDak and Prov brackets are not really appropriate.
    Obviously the current system is broken, and this COULD potentially fix it.

    What I'd like to see, is the "Super regional" with 8 teams idea with a west and an east site. The west alternates between ACCESSIBLE cities for visiting fans to get to (St. Paul, Denver, maybe Omaha, Milwaukee, or Detroit also). The east alternates between accessible cities there (Boston, New York City, Philly, and maybe some others like Pittsburgh).

    The brackets could still be seeded with two teams coming out into the Frozen Four. It could be a four day tournament at each site. Seats would be a lot more full, bracket integrity would be better, and sites would be more neutral for everybody then the #1 seed hosting idea, which I do think is important to the NCAA to some extent. Also, with the #1 seed what happens to fans of visiting teams that want to travel and watch their team play? That should ALWAYS be strongly encouraged in a regional team format and some cities, such as Duluth are extremely hard for visiting fans to get to.
    Last edited by Riz; 03-20-2017 at 12:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    What do you mean by appropriate? The Fargo bracket is bracket integrity to a T. Sounds like you have more of an issue with North Dakota being able to host in Fargo.
    I take it as meaning teams that earn a 1 seed may have earned the right to play at home as opposed to teams that are seeded 3 or 4, especially at the expense of the top seeds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by J.D. View Post
    Agreed. I think it had more to do with Miami playing horribly than anything else. Pretty sure Providence lost in the HE QFs at home against UNH. Miami simply gagged.
    Yup, as a UNH fan from childhood and a Miami fan through attendance, I remember assuring Miami fans that if that UNH team could win a series at Schneider than the RedHawks should have no trouble at all...

    Bob, yes this was the game where Miami fell well behind. There first 50 minutes were atrocious. The worst they'd played all year. That and missing Barber and Coleman were what did then in and those two factors would have killed them had the game been played in Oxford.

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riz View Post
    Obviously the current system is broken, and this COULD potentially fix it.

    What I'd like to see, is the "Super regional" with 8 teams idea with a west and an east site. The west alternates between ACCESSIBLE cities for visiting fans to get to (St. Paul, Denver, maybe Omaha, Milwaukee, or Detroit also). The east alternates between accessible cities there (Boston, New York City, Philly, and maybe some others like Pittsburgh).

    The brackets could still be seeded with two teams coming out into the Frozen Four. It could be a four day tournament at each site. Seats would be a lot more full, bracket integrity would be better, and sites would be more neutral for everybody then the #1 seed hosting idea, which I do think is important to the NCAA to some extent. Also, with the #1 seed what happens to fans of visiting teams that want to travel and watch their team play? That should ALWAYS be strongly encouraged in a regional team format and some cities, such as Duluth are extremely hard for visiting fans to get to.
    Just eliminate host schools. There's absolutely no need to have a system like that in place and it only complicates the process.
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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    The host school has to have some significance. Behind the scenes/planning/accommodations etc? I have no idea. But there has to be something Brown is doing for this regional, no? Unless you just meant eliminate the rule where a host school is automatically placed in that regional.

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Riz View Post
    Obviously the current system is broken, and this COULD potentially fix it.

    What I'd like to see, is the "Super regional" with 8 teams idea with a west and an east site. The west alternates between ACCESSIBLE cities for visiting fans to get to (St. Paul, Denver, maybe Omaha, Milwaukee, or Detroit also). The east alternates between accessible cities there (Boston, New York City, Philly, and maybe some others like Pittsburgh).

    The brackets could still be seeded with two teams coming out into the Frozen Four. It could be a four day tournament at each site. Seats would be a lot more full, bracket integrity would be better, and sites would be more neutral for everybody then the #1 seed hosting idea, which I do think is important to the NCAA to some extent. Also, with the #1 seed what happens to fans of visiting teams that want to travel and watch their team play? That should ALWAYS be strongly encouraged in a regional team format and some cities, such as Duluth are extremely hard for visiting fans to get to.
    I'm going to disagree with the suggestion the current system is "obviously broken." To the contrary, I think the current system for college hockey has worked remarkably well.

    The current system was installed for the 2002-03 season, when we first went to 16 teams. Before that we had the "super regionals" which frequently had bad attendance and included byes, problems with a team getting to play in front of a favorable crowd when they hadn't really earned it, etc...

    This is now the 15th season under the current system. In those 15 years we've seen fifty different schools make the tournament. Without checking, I'm going to guess you don't see the same participation rate in sports like basketball or baseball or others.

    Furthermore, we've seen 26 different schools make the Frozen Four, and that's just in the first fourteen seasons, obviously. Six of this year's field have yet to make a Frozen Four, so that number could increase in April.

    Through the first fourteen seasons of this format, eighteen different programs have played in the championship game. When you consider there have only been 28 spots in that game over those past fourteen seasons, that's pretty remarkable.

    That's not to say that small tweaks can't be made here or there, but I don't believe for a second the system is broken.
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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    I'm going to disagree with the suggestion the current system is "obviously broken." To the contrary, I think the current system for college hockey has worked remarkably well.

    The current system was installed for the 2002-03 season, when we first went to 16 teams. Before that we had the "super regionals" which frequently had bad attendance and included byes, problems with a team getting to play in front of a favorable crowd when they hadn't really earned it, etc...

    This is now the 15th season under the current system. In those 15 years we've seen fifty different schools make the tournament. Without checking, I'm going to guess you don't see the same participation rate in sports like basketball or baseball or others.

    Furthermore, we've seen 26 different schools make the Frozen Four, and that's just in the first fourteen seasons, obviously. Six of this year's field have yet to make a Frozen Four, so that number could increase in April.

    Through the first fourteen seasons of this format, eighteen different programs have played in the championship game. When you consider there have only been 28 spots in that game over those past fourteen seasons, that's pretty remarkable.

    That's not to say that small tweaks can't be made here or there, but I don't believe for a second the system is broken.
    Success of different teams has nothing to do with the system. It has to do with the natural parity in the sport in general. Teams get to play in front a favorable crowd now when they don't deserve it and attendance is frequently bad as well. I really did think you were describing the four regional setup and not the 12 team setup when you said that, although both are true.

    To be clear, I like the number of teams in the tournament, just not the locations of the regionals, especially recently.
    Last edited by Riz; 03-20-2017 at 01:33 PM.

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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    I'm going to disagree with the suggestion the current system is "obviously broken." To the contrary, I think the current system for college hockey has worked remarkably well.

    The current system was installed for the 2002-03 season, when we first went to 16 teams. Before that we had the "super regionals" which frequently had bad attendance and included byes, problems with a team getting to play in front of a favorable crowd when they hadn't really earned it, etc...

    This is now the 15th season under the current system. In those 15 years we've seen fifty different schools make the tournament. Without checking, I'm going to guess you don't see the same participation rate in sports like basketball or baseball or others.

    Furthermore, we've seen 26 different schools make the Frozen Four, and that's just in the first fourteen seasons, obviously. Six of this year's field have yet to make a Frozen Four, so that number could increase in April.

    Through the first fourteen seasons of this format, eighteen different programs have played in the championship game. When you consider there have only been 28 spots in that game over those past fourteen seasons, that's pretty remarkable.

    That's not to say that small tweaks can't be made here or there, but I don't believe for a second the system is broken.
    The problem is the NCAA expectations and requirements of regional sites that led to no on but Notre Dame at Compton bidding.

    Also, the biggest thing the NCAA could do is change the bye week from between regionals and frozen four to between selection sunday and regionals. Frozen Four is mostly sold out every year and people plan far in advance for that...while regionals typically have more expensive travel and require more lead time to get decent prices and get things worked out.
    Last edited by Shirtless Guy; 03-20-2017 at 02:14 PM.
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    Re: 2017 Pairwise thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Shirtless Guy View Post
    The problem is the NCAA expectations and requirements of regional sites that led to no on but Notre Dame at Compton bidding.

    Also, the biggest thing the NCAA could do is change the bye week from between regionals and frozen four to between selection sunday and regionals. Frozen Four is mostly sold out every year and people plan far in advance for that...while regionals typically have more expensive travel and require more lead time to get decent prices and get things worked out.
    Except then you run into the reason why they pushed the Frozen Four out a week in the first place - competition with the Final Four.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ticapnews View Post
    I take it as meaning teams that earn a 1 seed may have earned the right to play at home as opposed to teams that are seeded 3 or 4, especially at the expense of the top seeds.
    Correct, to me. UND should not get the advantage of rabid home fans filling the building when they are not the highest seed.

    And I would say the same about Minnesota at St Paul or at Mariucci, if they were not the #1

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