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Thread: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

  1. #181
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    Why? There are basically two economically feasible ways to bill your citizens for their garbage collection. Either you bill a flat fee, like we do here in the cities where garbage is handled by the government, where we're charged $X for up to Y volume of garbage, or you charge on a per unit basis - by the bag.

    By the bag is basically a lot like the toll road philosophy, and would be cheaper for people like me.

    I like it better than charging anyone with a TV for a programming service they may not use, a la the UK and the annual BBC fee.
    Having garbage police is crazy.

    Also, it means having either a government standard sized garbage can or increasing the amount of plastic bags used to bag trash.
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  2. #182
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Also, some things should just have a flat fee charged for access. Like the garbage system. Trying to figure out usage for everything is stupid and regressive. Like tolls. Tolls are dumb for two reasons:
    1. They are a service required to use by everyone, not just people who use them regularly. An economy benefits everyone, and like most things, disproportionately favors the wealthy. Roads are necessary for an economy. Regressive fees are bad. etc.
    2. I find that places with tolls tend to have the worst roads despite having weather that shouldn't cause the level of damage I see on said roads. Minnesota, Wisconsin, even the Dakotas have nicer roads. That money never goes to fix the **** roads.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SanTropez View Post
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    He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West.

  3. #183
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    We have both here kinds of charges here in Utica. We are charged a flat fee ($79.00/year per house) and then buy blue bags to put out out your garbage. Lots of stuff that can be recycled is put out in orange bins for free. The cost of the blue bags encourages you to recycle instead of bagging it up to go to the dump. Unless I mess up, nothing with my name/address goes anywhere with out being shredded first.
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    In MD we just started having official (looking) recycling containers, but the service provider gives them out. I'm ecstatic with mine because it's way nicer than whatever piece of on sale crap I'd have gotten from Target otherwise.
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  5. #185
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    We've had service-provided bins for as long as I can remember. Seriously, going back 25+ years. About 15 years ago we got rid of the recycling "tubs" and they converted them to single-sort 95-gallon bins just like the trash bins.

    Add to that, the service I have allows you to single-sort plastics 1-6 (or 7 if there is one), plastic bags, the usually recyclables, plus pizza boxes and other generally verboten items.

    The yard waste bin is a great money and time saver. For something around $100 a year they pick up a 105-gallon container with whatever trimmings I have from the lawn and yard. At the end of the fall they also do free pickup of leaf bags. It would take me hours to get the 30+ bags of mulched leaves down to the compost site.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    In MD we just started having official (looking) recycling containers, but the service provider gives them out. I'm ecstatic with mine because it's way nicer than whatever piece of on sale crap I'd have gotten from Target otherwise.
    Kep lives in the boonies. Here in uber progressive Montgomery County, we have trash (any container), recycling for paper and bottles/cans (in separate blue bins) for at least 10 years.

    Yard waste must be in approved large paper trash bags.

    We also have a large waste transfer facility where we can drop off the above plus electronics, paint, chemicals, metal, and old appliances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Also, some things should just have a flat fee charged for access. Like the garbage system. Trying to figure out usage for everything is stupid and regressive. Like tolls. Tolls are dumb for two reasons:
    1. They are a service required to use by everyone, not just people who use them regularly. An economy benefits everyone, and like most things, disproportionately favors the wealthy. Roads are necessary for an economy. Regressive fees are bad. etc.
    2. I find that places with tolls tend to have the worst roads despite having weather that shouldn't cause the level of damage I see on said roads. Minnesota, Wisconsin, even the Dakotas have nicer roads. That money never goes to fix the **** roads.
    The Illinois State Toll Highway Authority has their sh** figured out and the roads and maintenance are way better than what IDOT does for state highways and interstates. But, that's what happens when one 35 mile stretch of Tollway generates enough revenue to pay for the remaining 270 miles of Tollway.

    Also, the quirk with toll roads are that to be a toll road, they must opt out of state and federal funding for maintenance and operations of said roads. Any state gas-tax or similar tax doesn't go towards the maintenance of a toll road.

  8. #188
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by aparch View Post
    The Illinois State Toll Highway Authority has their sh** figured out and the roads and maintenance are way better than what IDOT does for state highways and interstates. But, that's what happens when one 35 mile stretch of Tollway generates enough revenue to pay for the remaining 270 miles of Tollway.

    Also, the quirk with toll roads are that to be a toll road, they must opt out of state and federal funding for maintenance and operations of said roads. Any state gas-tax or similar tax doesn't go towards the maintenance of a toll road.
    Maybe. The roads were still crap in Illinois and Indiana. Plus trying to pay for tolls when you just drive through was stupid. The links to search by license plate were broken or didn't work. Florida is the only tollway I've seen that actually has their **** figured out.
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    May your paint thinner run dry and the fleas of a thousand camels infest your dead deer.
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    I don't even know how to classify magic vagina smoke babies..
    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    When the giraffes start building radio telescopes they can join too.
    He's probably going to be a superstar but that man has more baggage than North West.

  9. #189
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Also, some things should just have a flat fee charged for access. Like the garbage system. Trying to figure out usage for everything is stupid and regressive.
    I know you said some things so I'm sure your point is more subtle than this but wouldn't that logic, kinda sorta, led to paying one fee to get into an NHL game, whether you were alone or with your family of 4? Shouldn't we pay for how much we use of a thing or service, generally? We all need water, it seems kind of stupid, not to mention lazy and mean, to make a widow living by herself pay the same flat fee that a family of 6 or 7 is paying.

    As far as garbage goes, many town sell garbage bags but pick up recycling for nothing, which encourages recycling - now what the disposal companies do with that recycling is another matter.


    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Tolls are dumb for two reasons:
    1. They are a service required to use by everyone, not just people who use them regularly. An economy benefits everyone, and like most things, disproportionately favors the wealthy. Roads are necessary for an economy. Regressive fees are bad. etc.
    Electricity is needed for an economy, too. Are you proposing we take the meters off our houses, the ones that tell us specifically how much each household uses, and replace them with a flat fee?


    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Tolls are dumb for two reasons:
    2. I find that places with tolls tend to have the worst roads despite having weather that shouldn't cause the level of damage I see on said roads. Minnesota, Wisconsin, even the Dakotas have nicer roads. That money never goes to fix the **** roads.
    Money is fungible, for starters, so no, the actual quarters you dropped in the bucket - I know, in ye olden days - don't actually get rolled up and sent to the paving companies. But it is revenue for the state, and roads are freaking expensive - tangent, as in the auto industry being the recipient of one of the largest corporate subsidies in the history of mankind expensive - to maintain so clearly a large chunk of money goes to roads.

  10. #190
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Certain things lend themselves to socialized costs. Public parks. Libraries. Roads. And yes, garbage hauling. I preferred Omaha including residential garbage pickup as a city service rather than paying for a private company, which I have to do now.

    And toll roads suck. Suck it up and raise your taxes rather than charging tolls.

    The free market is merely a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself. So your example comparing an NHL game ticket to garbage service is, frankly, patently absurd.

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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Certain things lend themselves to socialized costs. Public parks. Libraries. Roads. And yes, garbage hauling. I preferred Omaha including residential garbage pickup as a city service rather than paying for a private company, which I have to do now.

    And toll roads suck. Suck it up and raise your taxes rather than charging tolls.

    The free market is merely a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself. So your example comparing an NHL game ticket to garbage service is, frankly, patently absurd.
    I kind of go round and round about garbage collection, as during my adult life I've lived in Cities where it was a publicly provided service, and I've lived in Cities where private collectors provide the service. I'm not sure there is a cheaper or better solution.

    Currently I live in a City where we have to pay private haulers for the service. Waste Management is the primary hauler, and given an opportunity they would bend you over a trash barrel. However, our city has seen a cycle where someone local will start a small service, will attract local patronage, and supposedly will keep prices competitive. After 10 years or so they sell out to Waste Management, and for a period of time our rates climb. Lather, rinse, repeat.
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    For starters, I try not to be dogmatic but if you did a heat map of my political/social positions, the biggest label would probably be socialist. I'm all for heading in that direction, and think it's probably the only workable solution long term.

    With that said, let's do it or not do it, and not cherry pick the the areas that benefit us personally - hello NFL. Charging a widow, or anyone living alone, or a young couple with no kids the same for electricity, water, garbage collection, highway usage as you do a family with 4, 5, 6 kids is just outright wrong. We can measure that usage, let's charge for it appropriately.

    Not to mention, unlike public parks and libraries, water, electricity, garbage, and road use are things we should at least try to somewhat discourage. That's not going to happen if you're paying the same whether you use 10 gallons a day or a 100.

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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    And toll roads suck. Suck it up and raise your taxes rather than charging tolls.
    The bill at the end of a nice meal sucks, too. So does what I pay at the pump when I fill my car. The paying for the thing you used is usually the suckiest part of it, pretty sure we all agree with that.

    Trust me, I'm not a passionate fan of toll roads but I'm not sure why you single that charge out from among the hundreds of charges we pay in life. And with open road tolling...there are places where you literally don't even know where the toll is taken.

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    The free market is merely a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself. So your example comparing an NHL game ticket to garbage service is, frankly, patently absurd.
    The free market can be a force for good, but I could also post examples for the next hour where it's a force for bad. Not sure where I took either position in my post.

    As for patently absurd, I guess, if logic is not a strength. In each case, you're receiving a service. In each case, the amount of that service received can be measured. Yet in one case you want there to be a flat fee and in another you want there to be discrete charges. Yes, absurd.

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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    But you are paying for the road...that is what taxes are for.
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    But you are paying for the road...that is what taxes are for.
    Toll roads are not funded by taxes. They are set aside into a separate pool of funding entirely dependent upon the tolls collected. Sometimes they're even privately owned and operated.

    Minnesota used to have a toll bridge that crossed the Mississippi River in the S. St. Paul/Newport area (roughly). It stayed in operation until a barge operator messed up and damaged the bridge so badly that it had to shutdown operations. The barge company had insufficient insurance to cover the fix, and the company that owned the toll bridge couldn't cover the expense of replacing the bridge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by E.J. Smith View Post
    The bill at the end of a nice meal sucks, too. So does what I pay at the pump when I fill my car. The paying for the thing you used is usually the suckiest part of it, pretty sure we all agree with that.

    Trust me, I'm not a passionate fan of toll roads but I'm not sure why you single that charge out from among the hundreds of charges we pay in life. And with open road tolling...there are places where you literally don't even know where the toll is taken.

    The free market can be a force for good, but I could also post examples for the next hour where it's a force for bad. Not sure where I took either position in my post.

    As for patently absurd, I guess, if logic is not a strength. In each case, you're receiving a service. In each case, the amount of that service received can be measured. Yet in one case you want there to be a flat fee and in another you want there to be discrete charges. Yes, absurd.
    Attending an NHL game is neither a necessity of life nor the type of good that benefits society as a whole.

    Roads are both. You need to be able to travel (or have people travel to you), and society benefits from everyone being able to move freely.

    I recognize you're playing devil's advocate, but that doesn't make it any less an absurd comparison.

    As far as utilities go, every utility bill I've seen has a fixed component and a usage component. The fixed charge helps keep the usage charge lower, inherently socializing some portion of the cost of service.

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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    Toll roads are not funded by taxes. They are set aside into a separate pool of funding entirely dependent upon the tolls collected. Sometimes they're even privately owned and operated.

    Minnesota used to have a toll bridge that crossed the Mississippi River in the S. St. Paul/Newport area (roughly). It stayed in operation until a barge operator messed up and damaged the bridge so badly that it had to shutdown operations. The barge company had insufficient insurance to cover the fix, and the company that owned the toll bridge couldn't cover the expense of replacing the bridge.
    Right I know that...but you dont need toll roads to pay for usage since your usage would be paid for on a non-toll road by taxes. EJ seems to imply that that isnt true.
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  18. #198
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Certain things lend themselves to socialized costs. Public parks. Libraries. Roads. And yes, garbage hauling. I preferred Omaha including residential garbage pickup as a city service rather than paying for a private company, which I have to do now.

    And toll roads suck. Suck it up and raise your taxes rather than charging tolls.

    The free market is merely a means to an end, not a goal in and of itself. So your example comparing an NHL game ticket to garbage service is, frankly, patently absurd.
    This. Also it's a private service vs a public one. You just can't compare them.

  19. #199
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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    Minnesota used to have a toll bridge that crossed the Mississippi River in the S. St. Paul/Newport area (roughly). It stayed in operation until a barge operator messed up and damaged the bridge so badly that it had to shutdown operations. The barge company had insufficient insurance to cover the fix, and the company that owned the toll bridge couldn't cover the expense of replacing the bridge.
    One more reason toll roads are stupid.

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    Re: The States. It's 10th Amendment or bust!

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Maybe. The roads were still crap in Illinois and Indiana. Plus trying to pay for tolls when you just drive through was stupid. The links to search by license plate were broken or didn't work. Florida is the only tollway I've seen that actually has their **** figured out.
    The Indiana Tollway is hot garbage. I'll happily agree with you there.

    The ISTHA website is also hot garbage. But it's better than it was. Any time friends need to come through I'll throw 'em on my IPass account so they can zip through the toll plazas without worrying about tolls. Just buy me a dinner. Although ISTHA seems to want to fix my red wagon.

    The upkeep of the roads are much better than IDOT's tollways and highways.


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