2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

I think we can all agree that the HR records should only count between 1969 and 1982.

Anything later, we hit the steroid era head on.

Bingo. Which is why George Foster should be recognized as the all-time HR champ with 52 in 1977.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

My little graph says in 1960 there were about 26% non-white players and today there are about 37%. So take Maris' stats and multiply by, say, .7. His 1960 HR total is 43.

43 more than Ruth ever hit...using your math.

And I'm assuming you're using 1961 stats. Maris didn't hit all that many in 1960.

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

I think we can all agree that the HR records should only count between 1969 and 1982.

Anything later, we hit the steroid era head on.

Can't count 1962 onwards because of expansion. Can't count before integration. So the only legitimate baseball records were set between 1947 and 1961. And by that standard, Maris is the most impressive.

If you don't count Ralph Kiner hitting a homerun every 10 AB, career. But he was from Arizona which was not a state when MLB was established, so he doesn't count.

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

43 more than Ruth ever hit...using your math.

And I'm assuming you're using 1961 stats. Maris didn't hit all that many in 1960.

There were Latino players in baseball, and black players who could pass for Latino, during the color line era. Bill James has commented on the unusual number of "Cuban" players in baseball during that period.

I guess Cap Anson didn't have a problem with caliente, only soul.

Yeah, for some reason I always think 61 in 60. Maybe it's because he really hit 60 in 60 and then had that tag on game.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Yeah, for some reason I always think 61 in 60. Maybe it's because he really hit 60 in 60 and then had that tag on game.

Maris' HR arc throughout his career is pretty interesting: 14, 28, 16, 39, 61, 33, 23, 26, 8, 13, 9, 5.

If he posted those type of numbers today, I would wage that 95% of baseball fans would just assume Maris was juicing.

[JF_Gophers]

Maris' HR arc throughout his career is pretty interesting: 14, 28, 16, 39, 61, 33, 23, 26, 8, 13, 9, 5.

If he posted those type of numbers today, I would wage that 95% of baseball fans would just assume Maris was juicing.

The end of his career coincided with the mound being lowered right after he retired.

So I'll discount those last few years for him.

[Fighting Sioux 23]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

The end of his career coincided with the mound being lowered right after he retired.

So I'll discount those last few years for him.

Thanks Aaron Rodgers.

[jerphisch]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

If there are pharmaceutical amphetamines in the 1920s I've never heard of them.

Though I suppose he was also fueled by his psychological damage as an orphan. That's probably good for a few extra homers a year.

Late 1920's for OTC amphetamine inhalers (Benzedrine), but I was leaning more towards coke.

[Rover]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Fortunately, I'm not the one trying to sell Ruth (you are). I'm not sure on the % of non-white players who would have taken MLB spots. No one could ever know because they weren't given the chance. However, I do believe it is safe to say that there were many great pitchers who Ruth did not have to face due to segregation. I would also counter your second point by suggesting that the percentage of people in general who were actively seeking a professional career in sports in the 1920s more than offsets the lack of other major professional leagues (although the NFL did exist at that time).

Aside from Satchel Paige, who are these great negro leagues pitchers that Ruth missed? I'm sure there were some of course, but your premise seems to be that he missed out on facing an All-Star team. I think that's a big leap. I kinda doubt there were a great many of them unless I see some proof. Most of the greats I've ever heard of were hitters, not pitchers.

I'd also say in Ruth's case the parks were bigger, the pitchers had more license to throw at you especially in an era of no batting helmets where an errant fastball could (and did, in one case) kill you, and travel to visiting ballparks wasn't exactly luxurious. Despite that, it seems he could hit good pitching no matter what the color of the skin of the person throwing the ball to him.

[Rover]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Maris' HR arc throughout his career is pretty interesting: 14, 28, 16, 39, 61, 33, 23, 26, 8, 13, 9, 5.

If he posted those type of numbers today, I would wage that 95% of baseball fans would just assume Maris was juicing.

I thought he got hurt in like 64 or something and was never the same.

[Kepler]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Late 1920's for OTC amphetamine inhalers (Benzedrine), but I was leaning more towards coke.

Given that Ruth was well above replacement in every other Jazz Age vice, I'm sure he was heavily into coke.

Doubt coke helps you hit, though. From what I've seen in clubs it sho' don't help you dance. And your timing is going to have to be outstanding.

[Hammer]

Aside from Satchel Paige, who are these great negro leagues pitchers that Ruth missed? I'm sure there were some of course, but your premise seems to be that he missed out on facing an All-Star team. I think that's a big leap. I kinda doubt there were a great many of them unless I see some proof. Most of the greats I've ever heard of were hitters, not pitchers.

I'd also say in Ruth's case the parks were bigger, the pitchers had more license to throw at you especially in an era of no batting helmets where an errant fastball could (and did, in one case) kill you, and travel to visiting ballparks wasn't exactly luxurious. Despite that, it seems he could hit good pitching no matter what the color of the skin of the person throwing the ball to him.

Now imagine if he was born 10 years later, and didn't have to spend the first six years of his career pitching in the dead ball era. If he spends his prime in the 1930s (one of the biggest offensive eras in baseball history) instead of the 1920s, he's probably pushing 900 homers and 2,500 RBI.

When he hit his 60 in 1927, he was already 32 and towards the end of his prime. He effectively did his damage over 15 seasons (1919-1933).

[jerphisch]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Doubt coke helps you hit, though.

And steroids do?

[Hammer]

The end of his career coincided with the mound being lowered right after he retired.

So I'll discount those last few years for him.

I think the pressure just cracked him.

[Rover]

Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

Now imagine if he was born 10 years later, and didn't have to spend the first six years of his career pitching in the dead ball era. If he spends his prime in the 1930s (one of the biggest offensive eras in baseball history) instead of the 1920s, he's probably pushing 900 homers and 2,500 RBI.

When he hit his 60 in 1927, he was already 32 and towards the end of his prime. He effectively did his damage over 15 seasons (1919-1933).

Yup. I saw that too in that he didn't become an everybody player until the 1919 season. Even just adding that to his totals if he'd played outfield instead of pitched and the HR record is probably 800 instead of the tainted 762 or more legit 755.