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2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

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  • #796
    Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

    Originally posted by Kepler View Post
    He also did it in a beanball era with no batting helmet.

    For pure impressiveness, nobody is going to beat Ruth in 1920. 54 HR in 458 AB. Second in the majors was George Sisler with 19. Ruth batted .376 and his OPS+ was 255.

    He also won his only start.
    Ruth's stats standing alone are impressive, and I'm certainly not going to argue against that. However, Ruth's stats are tainted because of his competition. Also, there is a whole other line of argument regarding the status of the Home Run in 1920 baseball.
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    • #797
      Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

      Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
      Ruth's stats standing alone are impressive, and I'm certainly not going to argue against that. However, Ruth's stats are tainted because of his competition. Also, there is a whole other line of argument regarding the status of the Home Run in 1920 baseball.
      I just don't buy that. At most we're talking about 10% of the population excluded, and that is bought back again by not having to compete with the NFL or NBA for athletes.

      The meandering mean of homeruns does matter, though -- it is after all what debases current homerun totals.
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      • #798
        Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

        Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
        Ruth's stats standing alone are impressive, and I'm certainly not going to argue against that. However, Ruth's stats are tainted because of his competition. Also, there is a whole other line of argument regarding the status of the Home Run in 1920 baseball.
        Being the best is tainted because he's the best? That's kind of what you're arguing here. That he was too good, therefore we can't count it. It's standard deviations above the mean. That's how you measure greatness. Because the means and medians will shift, how high you stand above the shoulders of other men will be a better measure.
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        • #799
          Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          I just don't buy that. At most we're talking about 10% of the population excluded, and that is bought back again by not having to compete with the NFL or NBA for athletes.
          Fortunately, I'm not the one trying to sell Ruth (you are). I'm not sure on the % of non-white players who would have taken MLB spots. No one could ever know because they weren't given the chance. However, I do believe it is safe to say that there were many great pitchers who Ruth did not have to face due to segregation. I would also counter your second point by suggesting that the percentage of people in general who were actively seeking a professional career in sports in the 1920s more than offsets the lack of other major professional leagues (although the NFL did exist at that time).
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          • #800
            Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

            Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
            Being the best is tainted because he's the best? That's kind of what you're arguing here. That he was too good, therefore we can't count it. It's standard deviations above the mean. That's how you measure greatness. Because the means and medians will shift, how high you stand above the shoulders of other men will be a better measure.
            A good piece on the issues of normalizing baseball data.

            For example: if Hank Aaron plays his entire career using the normalized ratios of the 2000 Rockies, he hits 1004 career home runs.

            Another fun measure of Ruth. In the three seasons prior to Ruth becoming a regular position player the major league homerun lead was 12, 11, and 11. In Ruth's next three seasons he hit 24, 54, and 59. His WAR for those three seasons equals Ken Griffey Senior's entire 19-year career.
            Last edited by Kepler; 09-05-2017, 11:55 AM.
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            • #801
              Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

              Originally posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
              Being the best is tainted because he's the best? That's kind of what you're arguing here. That he was too good, therefore we can't count it. It's standard deviations above the mean. That's how you measure greatness. Because the means and medians will shift, how high you stand above the shoulders of other men will be a better measure.
              No. I'm discounting Ruth because he didn't have to play against Black players. If you want to argue that he was the greatest white player in the 1920s-1930s, I will not argue against that. My issue comes when you try to argue that Ruth's stats were better than [insert post-integration player]. IMO, you can't really make an accurate comparison.
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              • #802
                Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                aided only by booze and whores
                What makes you so sure of this?

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                • #803
                  Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  A good piece on the issues of normalizing baseball data.

                  For example: if Hank Aaron plays his entire career using the normalized ratios of the 2000 Rockies, he hits 1004 career home runs.
                  But, if Aaron plays for the 1927 Yankees, he hits 0 career home runs...because he wouldn't have been allowed to play.
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                  • #804
                    Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                    Originally posted by jerphisch View Post
                    What makes you so sure of this?
                    If there are pharmaceutical amphetamines in the 1920s I've never heard of them.

                    Though I suppose he was also fueled by his psychological damage as an orphan. That's probably good for a few extra homers a year.
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                    • #805
                      Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                      Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
                      But, if Aaron plays for the 1927 Yankees, he hits 0 career home runs...because he wouldn't have been allowed to play.
                      Which has nothing to do with Ruth.
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                      • #806
                        Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                        Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
                        No. I'm discounting Ruth because he didn't have to play against Black players. If you want to argue that he was the greatest white player in the 1920s-1930s, I will not argue against that. My issue comes when you try to argue that Ruth's stats were better than [insert post-integration player]. IMO, you can't really make an accurate comparison.
                        Then Maris is out too because it was before the great Latino invasion.

                        Ladies and gentlemen, the Alltime Most Impressive Single Season Homerun Champion: 2013 Chris Davis.
                        Last edited by Kepler; 09-05-2017, 12:07 PM.
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                        • #807
                          Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                          Which has nothing to do with Ruth.
                          But has everything to do with trying to normalize Ruth's statistics to other eras.
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                          • #808
                            Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            Then Maris is out too because it was before the great Latino invasion.
                            It's impossible to tell from your little graph, but it appears that Latin ballplayers equaled Black ballplayers around 1961.
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                            • #809
                              Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                              I think we can all agree that the HR records should only count between 1969 and 1982.

                              Anything later, we hit the steroid era head on.
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                              • #810
                                Re: 2017 MLB Season - The Goat Memorial Thread

                                Originally posted by Fighting Sioux 23 View Post
                                It's impossible to tell from your little graph, but it appears that Latin ballplayers equaled Black ballplayers around 1961.
                                My little graph says in 1960 there were about 26% non-white players and today there are about 37%. So take Maris' stats and multiply by, say, .7. His 1960 HR total is 43.
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