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Thread: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    Putting Garland's nomination aside, would anyone on here be very upset with the balance if Gorsuch is confirmed?
    "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

    Yes, in a normal political climate, Gorsuch should be confirmed 98-2 or thereabouts. But you can't ignore what the GOP did to get here.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

    Yes, in a normal political climate, Gorsuch should be confirmed 98-2 or thereabouts. But you can't ignore what the GOP did to get here.
    They gambled and won. There is nothing the Democrats can do. They can't burn down a house they believe in like the Republicans can when they're the minority. He'll be confirmed. The Democrats only decision is whether they want the Republicans to go Nuclear or not.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    They gambled and won. There is nothing the Democrats can do. They can't burn down a house they believe in like the Republicans can when they're the minority. He'll be confirmed. The Democrats only decision is whether they want the Republicans to go Nuclear or not.
    I agree completely. Doesn't mean I have to like it, and my conscience is clear. I voted for Hillary.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    I agree completely. Doesn't mean I have to like it, and my conscience is clear. I voted for Hillary.
    As is mine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

    Yes, in a normal political climate, Gorsuch should be confirmed 98-2 or thereabouts. But you can't ignore what the GOP did to get here.
    The ends justify the means as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure Merrick Garland is a lovely bloke and feel bad for him, but him in place of Scalia would have completely upset the balance. If Trump tried to replace Ginsburg with the second coming of Clarence Thomas I would hope and expect democrats to do the same thing.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    The ends justify the means as far as I'm concerned. I'm sure Merrick Garland is a lovely bloke and feel bad for him, but him in place of Scalia would have completely upset the balance. If Trump tried to replace Ginsburg with the second coming of Clarence Thomas I would hope and expect democrats to do the same thing.
    What balance? It's been a conservative court for near 50 years. You have no right to talk about balance when the Conservatives have owned the Court for this long.
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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    "Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?"

    Yes, in a normal political climate, Gorsuch should be confirmed 98-2 or thereabouts. But you can't ignore what the GOP did to get here.
    My wife has one terrible guy working in her office. From time to time she comes home storming about the latest atrocity and always finishes with "I just don't know what's wrong with him!"

    He's a fink, that's what's wrong with him. He's going to behave like that.

    The Congressional GOP caucus is a fink. We should just keep that in mind. If we're nice, they'll be a fink. If we're mean they'll be a fink. They're just going to behave like that. We can't influence them, we can only control how we react.

    Confirm Gorsuch. To be honest in his one statement where he says we depend too much on the courts and not enough on convincing people, he's probably right. That doesn't mean people should be denied their rights, but it does mean that when cases are brought which have massive public approval, like gun control, Gorsuch may well throw it back to the leg and say "these things should be decided in the public political forum." He may not be a hypocrite.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    What balance? It's been a conservative court for near 50 years. You have no right to talk about balance when the Conservatives have owned the Court for this long.
    You're really going to argue Kennedy is some sort of hard core conservative? Roberts is ultra conservative as well? I'll have what you're having.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    My wife has one terrible guy working in her office. From time to time she comes home storming about the latest atrocity and always finishes with "I just don't know what's wrong with him!"

    He's a fink, that's what's wrong with him. He's going to behave like that.

    The Congressional GOP caucus is a fink. We should just keep that in mind. If we're nice, they'll be a fink. If we're mean they'll be a fink. They're just going to behave like that. We can't influence them, we can only control how we react.

    Confirm Gorsuch. To be honest in his one statement where he says we depend too much on the courts and not enough on convincing people, he's probably right. That doesn't mean people should be denied their rights, but it does mean that when cases are brought which have massive public approval, like gun control, Gorsuch may well throw it back to the leg and say "these things should be decided in the public political forum." He may not be a hypocrite.
    The other thing to think about is this. At least as far as my memory goes, if a justice turns out to be not quite what we thought of him or her as a nominee, it is almost always because they are less conservative than thought/hoped. I'd have a hard time thinking of a justice who turned out to be more conservative than anticipated. We haven't seen Ginsberg or Breyer or Kagan, etc..., turn into Alito once they got on the bench. But we have see occasions where someone thought to be quite conservative actually became a pretty solid progressive voice on the Supremes.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    Trump could care less and it's not going to happen. He's pro abortion anyway. I don't want a one sided court, either way. If Garland replaced Scalia it would very much have been one sided.
    This is actually not true at all. Somewhere back in the mists of time we discussed quantitative measures of the longterm trending of the Court. The Roberts and late Rehnquist courts were dramatically farther right that at any time since the Gilded Age. The current Court minus Scalia is to still the right of the historical mean. Even a wildly liberal justice would have pushed it just barely to the left side of the mean, whereas Gorsuch pushes it back well into the solid right.

    We are emerging from a period of a radicalized right Court. We do not need to go back there.
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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    The other thing to think about is this. At least as far as my memory goes, if a justice turns out to be not quite what we thought of him or her as a nominee, it is almost always because they are less conservative than thought/hoped. I'd have a hard time thinking of a justice who turned out to be more conservative than anticipated. We haven't seen Ginsberg or Breyer or Kagan, etc..., turn into Alito once they got on the bench. But we have see occasions where someone thought to be quite conservative actually became a pretty solid progressive voice on the Supremes.
    Gee, I wonder why that could be?
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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    This is actually pretty cool and very surprising to me:

    He attended Harvard Law School, as well as Columbia and Oxford, and clerked for Justices Byron White and Anthony Kennedy of the Supreme Court. (White retired in 1993 and died in 2002.) It’s the sort of gleaming ivory C.V. that was largely absent from the rest of Trump’s shortlist. Academically, Gorsuch would fit right in: Every current justice attended law school at either Harvard or Yale. But if he’s confirmed, it would be the first time a justice and his former clerk sat together on the Supreme Court.
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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    You're really going to argue Kennedy is some sort of hard core conservative? Roberts is ultra conservative as well? I'll have what you're having.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideolo...s_1937-Now.png

    According to this, Kennedy is a very moderate liberal, Roberts is an equally moderate conservative, everyone else is between 1-3 "points" (?) of their known leanings. Except Thomas. He's beyond help.

    The court has been around 0-1 conservative since 1965. It has only recently tilted liberal, but that's only the median.
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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Gee, I wonder why that could be?
    One could argue that advancing age brings on senility, but I'm guessing that's not your point.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    The other thing to think about is this. At least as far as my memory goes, if a justice turns out to be not quite what we thought of him or her as a nominee, it is almost always because they are less conservative than thought/hoped. I'd have a hard time thinking of a justice who turned out to be more conservative than anticipated. We haven't seen Ginsberg or Breyer or Kagan, etc..., turn into Alito once they got on the bench. But we have see occasions where someone thought to be quite conservative actually became a pretty solid progressive voice on the Supremes.
    This is true.
    https://fivethirtyeight.com/features...hey-get-older/

    But I think scooby makes a good point. Why do they turn more liberal as they get older?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drew S. View Post
    You're really going to argue Kennedy is some sort of hard core conservative? Roberts is ultra conservative as well? I'll have what you're having.
    Roberts is a traditional Republican, and Kennedy is center-right.

    We haven't had a liberal majority on the court for two generations, and this election pretty much ensures a third.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    The other thing to think about is this. At least as far as my memory goes, if a justice turns out to be not quite what we thought of him or her as a nominee, it is almost always because they are less conservative than thought/hoped. I'd have a hard time thinking of a justice who turned out to be more conservative than anticipated. We haven't seen Ginsberg or Breyer or Kagan, etc..., turn into Alito once they got on the bench. But we have see occasions where someone thought to be quite conservative actually became a pretty solid progressive voice on the Supremes.
    True.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    One could argue that advancing age brings on senility, but I'm guessing that's not your point.
    Or compassion. Past regrets. Wisdom. You know, not being a cold and heartless conservative being their legacy. Things like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Roberts is a traditional Republican, and Kennedy is center-right.

    We haven't had a liberal majority on the court for two generations, and this election pretty much ensures a third.
    Not according to what dx posted.

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    Re: Power of the SCOTUS IX: The outlook wasn’t brilliant for the SCOTUS nine that day

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Or compassion. Past regrets. Wisdom. You know, not being a cold and heartless conservative being their legacy. Things like that.
    I think a more apt analogy would be to think of parents versus grandparents. It's not easy being the azzhole, but sometimes it's necessary for your own good, and that's the role of parents. Grandparents, on the other hand, are much more apt to spoil the kid, because, well frankly, they aren't going to have to live with the consequences that much longer.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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