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  • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

    Originally posted by MaizeRage View Post
    So the House still hasn't sent their omnishambles health care bill over to the Senate yet, and may have to re-vote on it. Yes, please. Attach as many 'yea' votes onto the GOP for this disaster as possible. https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/a...re-repeal-bill
    That whole article is interesting (although I would like to read a smart and comprehensive account of all the procedural issues at stake). It alludes to the Congressional procedural move I most despise:

    If Republican leaders hold onto the bill until the CBO report is released, then Ryan and his team could still redo it if necessary. That would require at least one more House vote of some sort.

    That vote could be cloaked in some kind of arcane procedural move, but it would still be depicted as a proxy for yet another vote on the same bill -- and reluctant Republicans will once again be forced to decide whether to back it.
    If I understand, they are referring to the move where you take a bill that has moved out of committee and is scheduled for a vote, strip everything from it, literally, and copy-paste in a whole other bill. This isn't like attaching riders or the bad (good) old days of earmarks, this is gutting the turkey and pushing a duck inside it. The idea is not to obscure it but to short-circuit all the rules that allow the minority some procedural wiggle room.

    99 times out of 100 this gets used to correct an actual, unplanned, bipartisan f-ck-up by Congress: like they literally don't have the time left to pass a full appropriation and the Grandma Program is going to be detached from life support in 5 hours, so they body snatch the next bill for a vote, the Cement Mixer Adjustment Act, and just shove Granny in the tauntaun carcass and pass it on voice vote.

    But it's still a flagrant violation of the intent of, well, having any f-cking rules at all. Mix in partisanship and an important issue and it's a despicable tactic, whoever does it.
    Last edited by Kepler; 05-18-2017, 04:15 PM.
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    • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

      Is it that difficult to do a straight repeal?

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      • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

        Originally posted by FlagDUDE08 View Post
        Is it that difficult to do a straight repeal?
        Nobody's trying to just do a straight repeal, but it's a good question. Theoretically you can usually just back a law out. But health care is so freaking complicated (which "no one could have known...") that there are probably lots of little and even not so little corners you have to fill with something.

        But that ignores the central political problem, which is that ACA brought a lot of issues to light that had been successfully obscured before. You can't put those genii (?) back in the bottle, you have to address them in some fashion now. That's where Republicans are getting destroyed at town halls. It's not so much "save my Obamacare!", it's "now that we know about how we were getting the shaft before you can't just send us back there."

        One of the main reasons the Republicans fought so hard against Obamacare was they knew that the public debate would educate people and they wouldn't be able to just go back to letting the uncovered die naked and alone. Remember: Obamacare itself was the conservative solution, allowing the medical, pharma and insurance industries to bleed the government dry. It is a plute-friendly solution, unsurprising since it was designed by the plute-thralls at Heritage. The real solution, single payer financed exclusively by taxing the ultra rich, is what they are literally willing to kill millions in order to avoid.

        Because, you know, Jesus would have wanted it that way.
        Last edited by Kepler; 05-19-2017, 12:27 PM.
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        • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          genii (?)

          Genii or genies is good. Or jinn.
          Originally posted by WiscTJK
          I'm with Wisko and Tim.
          Originally posted by Timothy A
          Other than Wisko McBadgerton and Badger Bob, who is universally loved by all?

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          • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            One of the main reasons the Republicans fought so hard against Obamacare was they knew that the public debate would educate people and they wouldn't be able to just go back to letting the uncovered die naked and alone. Remember: Obamacare itself was the conservative solution, allowing the medical, pharma and insurance industries to bleed the government dry. It is a plute-friendly solution, unsurprising since it was designed by the plute-thralls at Heritage. The real solution, single payer financed exclusively by taxing the ultra rich, is what they are literally willing to kill millions in order to avoid.
            You were doing so well until you got to this point. For all of the wanna see Sanders in the buff crowd, I can't say this enough. Obamacare is NOT conservative in any way, shape, form or function. Even if one portion of it, ironically the mandate to have coverage, was Heritage inspired that harkens back to the conservatism of 25+ years ago. Righties have gone a long way off the reservation since then.

            So, to sum up: Tax hikes on the very rich isn't conservative. Restricting how much insurers can charge older people isn't conservative. Banning lifetime limits on coverage or discriminating against people with pre existing conditions is not conservative. Expanding Medicaid IS NOT CONSERVATIVE!!!!

            All of these things are part of the bill, and they are all what conservatives (the modern day version, not the unicorns you see in your sleep from the 1970's) want to get rid of because its gumbint policy that actually delivered on what it said it would.

            I don't have a problem with single payer although I think its something you'd have to achieve incrementally starting with a Medicare buy in for those 50+. But the problem single payer advocates have, and its a huge one, is continually trashing the ACA has the effect of doing the Republicans bidding for them. If they want it gone, and a portion of our base keeps hearing its really a conservative plan, they won't fight for it and the effect will be that the Paul Ryans of the world will win. Somehow I don't see how that helps the cause of getting to single payer if depressed Dem turnout puts Ryan, McConnell, and Trump in complete control of the government.
            Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

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            • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

              So you dont know the difference between something being conservative and a politician being Conservative? Really?

              The plan itself is conservative (it is a baby step towards single payer) the people who oppose it gave up being conservative long ago.
              "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
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              • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

                Originally posted by Handyman View Post
                So you dont know the difference between something being conservative and a politician being Conservative? Really?

                The plan itself is conservative (it is a baby step towards single payer) the people who oppose it gave up being conservative long ago.
                We really need to ditch the outdated view of conservatives. Mainstream conservatism is the House Freedom Caucus. Its Judge Roy Moore in Alabama. Its Paul Ryan. Its Scott Walker and Sam Brownback. Nothing conservative would be a baby step towards single payer. True conservatism is a full scale sprint AWAY from single payer. I'm not sure why people are having such a problem understanding that.
                Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

                  Originally posted by Rover View Post
                  True conservatism is a full scale sprint AWAY from single payer.
                  no, true conservatism would resist extreme movement in either direction, instead favoring a more measured approach (which, in theory, could include baby steps either towards or away from single payer)

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                  • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

                    Originally posted by BassAle View Post
                    no, true conservatism would resist extreme movement in either direction, instead favoring a more measured approach (which, in theory, could include baby steps either towards or away from single payer)
                    Um, again, the true conservatism you write about has been gone for 40 years. At some point, reached long ago, we need to redefine it by the terms to describe the vast majority of people who consider themselves conservative in the here and now. Arguing that real conservatism means an incremental approach to policy is like arguing that the world is flat. Maybe people believed that a long time ago, but its been long enough now that we should all know better.


                    Over time a definition can and does change.
                    Legally drunk???? If its "legal", what's the ------- problem?!? - George Carlin

                    Ever notice how everybody who drives slower than you is an idiot, and everybody who drives faster is a maniac? - George Carlin

                    "I've never seen so much reason and bullsh*t contained in ONE MAN."

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                    • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

                      Originally posted by Rover View Post
                      is like arguing that the world is flat. Maybe people believed that a long time ago, but its been long enough now that we should all know better..
                      don't look now, but they are gaining on you!!!
                      a legend and an out of work bum look a lot alike, daddy.

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                      • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

                        Originally posted by Rover View Post
                        Um, again, the true conservatism you write about has been gone for 40 years. At some point, reached long ago, we need to redefine it by the terms to describe the vast majority of people who consider themselves conservative in the here and now. Arguing that real conservatism means an incremental approach to policy is like arguing that the world is flat. Maybe people believed that a long time ago, but its been long enough now that we should all know better.


                        Over time a definition can and does change.
                        There's a big world out there and conservatism in it means incrementalism and reactionariness. The radical right in the US are not in any way "conservative." They hide behind the term like the North Koreans use the term "Democratic" in DPRK. The American radical right is fascist. They captured the GOP. But the vast majority of American conservatives are not fascists. They are at worst lazy and uninformed and willing to follow the GOP.
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                        • Re: The PPACA Thread Part IV - Repeal & Replace, or Something...

                          Originally posted by Rover View Post
                          Um, again, the true conservatism you write about has been gone for 40 years. At some point, reached long ago, we need to redefine it by the terms to describe the vast majority of people who consider themselves conservative in the here and now. Arguing that real conservatism means an incremental approach to policy is like arguing that the world is flat. Maybe people believed that a long time ago, but its been long enough now that we should all know better.


                          Over time a definition can and does change.
                          Right but, as per usual, you are arguing two different points to try and show you are right when you arent. Saying Obamacare is conservative is not the same thing as talking about the GOP and whether that is conservative anymore. The plan itself is conservative because it takes small steps. The GOP dont have a political ideology anymore outside of "whatever the Dems say we say the opposite".

                          I dont know why I even bother...it is obvious you slept your way through Political Philosophy if you ever took it
                          "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                          -aparch

                          "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
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                          Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
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