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Thread: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Every year from now on will probably be worse than the one before. The cult of celebrity is a fairly recent phenomenon, and those we consider celebrities have only grown in number over the last 50+ years. As time goes on, and we all continue to grow older, it's only a matter of statistics now.
    As such: the number of people that are more universally loved (like, say, Prince) is going to decrease, so while more famous people will die, they won't have the same impact when they go.

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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    I dunno about that. There'll always be a good five or ten each year that will have that same sort of affect, at least for the next decade or two.
    Those are brave men knocking at our door. Let's go kill them!

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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    Every year from now on will probably be worse than the one before. The cult of celebrity is a fairly recent phenomenon, and those we consider celebrities have only grown in number over the last 50+ years. As time goes on, and we all continue to grow older, it's only a matter of statistics now.
    Exactly.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    There are simply far more entertainment venues than there were 10 years ago, 30 years ago.... More movies are made, there are hundreds of television channels and a lot of solid programming compared to when there were 4 main channels only and before cable networks dove into the field, musicians do a lot more to promote themselves than ever before, etc., etc.

    We didn't just lose a lot of celebrities in 2016 we lost titans and icons. Yes every celebrity death gets a headline, but let's not exaggerate how impacting all of them are. Most get a nod, a sad smilie face on a blog and they're forgotten beyond their hardcore fans. There will be more and more of those but it will never be viewed the same way.

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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    There are simply far more entertainment venues than there were 10 years ago, 30 years ago.... More movies are made, there are hundreds of television channels and a lot of solid programming compared to when there were 4 main channels only and before cable networks dove into the field, musicians do a lot more to promote themselves than ever before, etc., etc.

    We didn't just lose a lot of celebrities in 2016 we lost titans and icons. Yes every celebrity death gets a headline, but let's not exaggerate how impacting all of them are. Most get a nod, a sad smilie face on a blog and they're forgotten beyond their hardcore fans. There will be more and more of those but it will never be viewed the same way.
    Exactly. Celebrity and icon are different beasts.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    Exactly. Celebrity and icon are different beasts.
    And "icon" is overused.

    Looking at the deaths in 2016 I see two icons: Ali and Bowie. There are plenty of celebs who were icons within their niches -- Howe, Palmer, Wilder, Prince, Glenn, Scalia, Haggard -- but not people who changed the whole cultural landscape.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    I completely disagree on Palmer and Prince. Palmer completely changed golf in a way that only Tiger Woods could match some 40-50 years later. He helped it explode into TV broadcasting and was Jordan-like for endorsements.

    Prince's influence on other artists is simply too immense to even begin to list and was every bit as influential as Bowie. That's not me as a MN boy talking, that's me as a fan and student of music for as long as I can remember talking.

    John Glenn maybe doesn't garner the same, but the pioneers of the Space Program changed the world.

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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    I completely disagree on Palmer and Prince. Palmer completely changed golf in a way that only Tiger Woods could match some 40-50 years later. He helped it explode into TV broadcasting and was Jordan-like for endorsements.

    Prince's influence on other artists is simply too immense to even begin to list and was every bit as influential as Bowie. That's not me as a MN boy talking, that's me as a fan and student of music for as long as I can remember talking.

    John Glenn maybe doesn't garner the same, but the pioneers of the Space Program changed the world.
    Well, obviously if we're talking about people who changed The World, Glenn and Scalia are the only people on the list who matter at all.

    But I'm talking about cultural phenomena who affect a large part of the world, and I'll stand by my claim.

    It is probably very unusual that a year has 2 such deaths, since really we're talking about maybe 5 people in a decade. Michael Jackson, Elvis, maybe Michael Jordan. Charles Lindberg. No baseball or football players, ever. Maybe a dozen soccer players. Maybe a dozen actors. There just aren't many true "icons," by my way of thinking.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    What Slappy said. Prince, as a musician, absolutely changed the musical landscape and is an icon. His influence is unreal.

    Same with Palmer, and as he said, Tiger. Different types of influence. Palmer brought golf to the public. Tiger extended that to the public who aren't (my quotes) "old, stuffy, and rich white guys."

    In their fields, all of the above are indeed icons.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    In their fields, all of the above are indeed icons.
    Bold for emphasis. Nobody disputes this. Somewhere there is a rhythmic gymnastics icon.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Bold for emphasis. Nobody disputes this. Somewhere there is a rhythmic gymnastics icon.
    Popular music and major sports garner a *bit* more attention. I guess I use the "popular" factor/interest in (insert field) when it comes to this.
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    Popular music and major sports garner a *bit* more attention. I guess I use the "popular" factor/interest in (insert field) when it comes to this.
    I think Kepler is being intentionally obtuse or just being stubborn based upon personal tastes. Palmer and Prince extended every bit as far beyond their industry as Bowie whom he has no trouble naming to such a list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    I think Kepler is being intentionally obtuse or just being stubborn based upon personal tastes. Palmer and Prince extended every bit as far beyond their industry as Bowie whom he has no trouble naming to such a list.
    Kepler stubborn based on his personal tastes??? Nah, can't be.

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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    Popular music and major sports garner a *bit* more attention. I guess I use the "popular" factor/interest in (insert field) when it comes to this.
    I'll agree on music. Sports, only if it's a sport played round the world, so I'm afraid Babe Ruth and Jim Brown have to suck it.

    Not OJ, though. OJ's an icon alright...

    I just don't know about Prince. It's possibly he's Freddy Mercury out there in the wide world. I'll defer to the town meeting for a ruling on this.

    I think of icons as a pyramid. Start with Jesus as the capstone and start moving down. At some point you artificially draw a line and say "icon above, celeb below." Where that line is is a matter of taste.*

    * Or maybe there's a critical test: does the Culturally Conscious Man in the Street on the other side of the cultural world at least know who the person is? Not just the name but the "it" he or she is? Not the ignorant Amazon blow dart hunter or Sarah Palin, but a person with a modicum of culture from a totally different head space.

    To put it another way: India's got Bollywood stars with a billion fans. Know any? If you do, that person has a shot at being an icon. I've heard of one: Guru Dutt (who wasn't even an actor).

    So as much as my life was transformed by, say, George Carlin, he's not an all caps ICON. An icon needs to cast a global shadow, like Ali.
    Last edited by Kepler; 01-30-2017 at 10:23 AM.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Slap Shot View Post
    I think Kepler is being intentionally obtuse or just being stubborn based upon personal tastes. Palmer and Prince extended every bit as far beyond their industry as Bowie whom he has no trouble naming to such a list.
    I'm open to the possibility that Bowie doesn't deserve to be on the list. My impression is he defined a particular era of culture, not just music, the way say The Beatles collectively (not individually) did before, and Elvis before them.

    I agree that as music has shattered into a billion genres we may never have another music icon. I can't think of anybody after MJ except maybe Beyonce?

    But I will say this: I insist that my obtuseness is not intentional.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    C'mon. Mccartney? Clapton? Keef and Mick?

    Or are you talking more recent musical folks? Madonna for sure. Miley and Bieber?
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    For "current" possible icons, Dave Grohl in the music world. I don't think he'll transcend like Prince or Bowie, though, despite his influences and talent.
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by rufus View Post
    C'mon. Mccartney? Clapton? Keef and Mick?

    Or are you talking more recent musical folks? Madonna for sure. Miley and Bieber?
    I'm saying more recent than, say, Thriller.

    Madonna, certainly. Others? Although rap as a whole is earth-shaking there is no single transformative figure for the outside cultural world. Biggie really only reached mas consciousness after death (how ironic). Kanye thinks he is but he's really, really not.
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    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    For "current" possible icons, Dave Grohl in the music world. I don't think he'll transcend like Prince or Bowie, though, despite his influences and talent.
    For me this is a perfect example of a "cognoscenti icon," very much like Prince and, the more I think about it now, Bowie (the poster child is Zappa). These are people we really want to be icons because of their sheer quality. There are dozens of jazz artists in this group (Coltrane, Gillespie, Ellington, Holiday, Fitzgerald, Miles, Bird) but the only actual jazz "icon" is probably Louie Armstrong.
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