Page 31 of 31 FirstFirst ... 2122232425262728293031
Results 601 to 615 of 615

Thread: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

  1. #601

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Secret Lair
    Posts
    50,891

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    JFC Kep get your head out of the Philosophy 200 books and come back to the real world. Yes there is pain being inflicted on the survivors, the other members of the band, his friends, his family especially, but to basically **** on his grave and have this scornful attitude? That's low. You've no clue how hard it can be to deal with mental illness.
    I've explained my opinion. It's not "low" and taking that attitude towards it is lazy. I could for example, return your cheap shot and say you are being callous towards his kids. But I know you're not -- you are privileging his pain over theirs, just as I am privileging their pain over his.

    I can't really explain why I choose the way I do, but I do. It's not a utilitarian calculation of 6 > 1. I would feel the same way about a pair of parents who committed suicide and left 1 child. It does have to do with innocence and responsibility. There is always a degree of responsibility in everyone for their actions; even if the waves of mental illness were roaring in the background this man was not paralyzed -- he led a life, which means he was capable of some degree of reflection and control. That means this was to some degree a conscious, intentional act. And to that degree I blame him for the suffering he has caused.

    This is an emotional issue which is why people have responded so emotionally to my opinion, plus as always "I'm obnoxious and disliked did you know that?" But stripping away the snark I stand by the argument as the true real world argument. I am taking everyone's pain into consideration and not living in an ivory tower where only his counts.

    I believe the Suicidal Artiste Culture gives these people an image that people -- even they themselves -- fall for. I believe the SAC is a silly 19th century concoction by jaded merchants to sell to bored Victorian housewives, and because melodrama sells so well it also polluted movies and now music culture. To commit suicide, particularly if you're a writer, an artist, or a musician, is the ultimate authenticity. "I told you I was ill."

    What I'm saying is f-ck all that. If you have kids and you kill yourself you cease to be pitiable and you become detestable.

    Now, as for whether I have "a clue" how hard it can be to deal with mental illness, don't go there, kitten. Don't assume anything about a person like that. There is indeed cluelessness here, and it's your understanding of what another person has experienced.
    Last edited by Kepler; 07-21-2017 at 11:04 AM.
    2016 USCHO POSER OF THE YEAR

    "The strength and power of despotism consists wholly in the fear of resistance." -- Thomas Paine

    Cornell University
    NCAA Champion 1967, 1970
    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
    Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014

  2. #602
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Posts
    5,713

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    No disrespect to your father...but that is a terrible thing to say and believe. You and your father have zero understanding of how the mind works or what causes suicide. He didnt just up and shoot himself one day, people dont kill themselves on a whim. Something was wrong in his brain...

    And this is where someone will say "then go seek help". It doesnt always work. Not to mention the stigma you get when people find out you are medicated or in therapy. Then there is the problem of getting the right help, sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

    The attitude you and Kepler have reminds me of the people who chastise alcoholics because they choose to be drunks.
    I hear where you are coming from Handy, but I'm going to still agree with Kep and my dad. Hardly a week or a month goes by where we don't hear about a murder/suicide involving some guy and his wife/girlfriend, and maybe some kids. Usually the public response from everyone about the guy who commits suicide is just a cold sort of "good riddance" response, not concern about his or her mental well-being. No different here or with my baseball coach.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  3. #603
    Already insane, UAA making it worse
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    49th
    Posts
    16,953
    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    I've explained my opinion. It's not "low" and taking that attitude towards it is lazy. I could for example, return your cheap shot and say you are being callous towards his kids. But I know you're not -- you are privileging his pain over theirs, just as I am privileging their pain over his.

    I can't really explain why I choose the way I do, but I do. It's not a utilitarian calculation of 6 > 1. I would feel the same way about a pair of parents who committed suicide and left 1 child. It does have to do with innocence and responsibility. There is always a degree of responsibility in everyone for their actions; even if the waves of mental illness were roaring in the background this man was not paralyzed -- he led a life, which means he was capable of some degree of reflection and control. That means this was to some degree a conscious, intentional act. And to that degree I blame him for the suffering he has caused.

    This is an emotional issue which is why people have responded so emotionally to my opinion, plus as always "I'm obnoxious and disliked did you know that?" But stripping away the snark I stand by the argument as the true real world argument. I am taking everyone's pain into consideration and not living in an ivory tower where only his counts.

    I believe the Suicidal Artiste Culture gives these people an image that people -- even they themselves -- fall for. I believe the SAC is a silly 19th century concoction by jaded merchants to sell to bored Victorian housewives, and because melodrama sells so well it also polluted movies and now music culture. To commit suicide, particularly if you're a writer, an artist, or a musician, is the ultimate authenticity. "I told you I was ill."

    What I'm saying is f-ck all that. If you have kids and you kill yourself you cease to be pitiable and you become detestable.

    Now, as for whether I have "a clue" how hard it can be to deal with mental illness, don't go there, kitten. Don't assume anything about a person like that. There is indeed cluelessness here, and it's your understanding of what another person has experienced.
    Kep, I'm upset because you have a very flippant attitude and are seemingly very ignorant about this. I can concede I don't know everything about you but I have to deal with the information given.

    I don't feel sad for just him, I feel sad for everyone involved including him. Yeah it's an awful thing the family is dealing with, but it doesn't make Chester a bad person. It's an unimaginable pain to be abused as a kid, I see it every day with my wife. I'd give anything to have her be able to sleep just one night without a nightmare. These people have been injured, it's just an injury you can't see. Yeah he led a life but living isn't the same as being in control. You can suppress things and still go about a daily life, it doesn't mean you're in control, it just means you've suppressed it enough to get through. It's still there, it still eats at you, it still hurts you, it still controls you. I went through a terrible depression cycle for a over year yet I was still able to go to work and play games and post on here yet, I didn't have any control to my life. I was just going through my routine. It's hard to describe, you're living but you don't really have any part of it.

    The worst thing is your attitude heavily contributes to the stigma of mental illness. It really gives a feeling that we're all just weak people who only care about ourselves. You may not mean that, but that's my takeaway from it, and it's frustrating.

  4. #604

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    20904/13677/07677/07621
    Posts
    29,787

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Washington, DC NBC news anchor Jim Vance, 75.

  5. #605
    NICKERSON HAS [CENSORED]
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Mountain View, CA
    Posts
    16,882

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Washington, DC NBC news anchor Jim Vance, 75.
    As someone who grew up in the DC area, another reminder that my childhood is over. (I'm 34 for the record.)

    Cornell '04, Stanford '06


    KDR

    Rover Frenchy, Classic! Great post.
    iwh30 I wish I could be as smart as you. I really do you are the man
    gregg729 I just saw your sig, you do love having people revel in your "intelligence."
    Ritt18 you are the perfect representation of your alma mater.
    Shirtless Bob That's it, you win.
    TBA#2 I want to kill you and dance in your blood.
    DisplacedCornellian Hahaha. Thread over. Frenchy wins.

  6. #606
    NEVER DIE! ShirtlessBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    At a Coffee Shop
    Posts
    37,514

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    John Heard, 76. Kevin McAllister's dad in Home Alone. I still wonder what he did to afford that house and a vacation to Paris for 9 people..
    twitter: PipersHouse920
    “Don't bend; don't water it down; don't try to make it logical; don't edit your own soul according to the fashion. Rather, follow your most intense obsessions mercilessly.”
    ― Franz Kafka
    269/1,000 miles ran, 0/2,000 on bicycle
    Next race: FUNderwear Run 5K on March 12, Irish Jig 5K on March 18.

  7. #607
    there's a good buck in that racket.
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    35,590
    Quote Originally Posted by ShirtlessBob View Post
    John Heard, 76. Kevin McAllister's dad in Home Alone. I still wonder what he did to afford that house and a vacation to Paris for 9 people..
    Didn't they stay with his brother?

  8. #608
    NEVER DIE! ShirtlessBob's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    At a Coffee Shop
    Posts
    37,514

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by mookie1995 View Post
    Didn't they stay with his brother?
    It's been 20 years since I've seen that movie.
    twitter: PipersHouse920
    “Don't bend; don't water it down; don't try to make it logical; don't edit your own soul according to the fashion. Rather, follow your most intense obsessions mercilessly.”
    ― Franz Kafka
    269/1,000 miles ran, 0/2,000 on bicycle
    Next race: FUNderwear Run 5K on March 12, Irish Jig 5K on March 18.

  9. #609
    Defacing this tagline is a MAX foul Twitch Boy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Shouting it from the Chugach Mountains
    Posts
    17,344
    Quote Originally Posted by ShirtlessBob View Post
    John Heard, 76. Kevin McAllister's dad in Home Alone. I still wonder what he did to afford that house and a vacation to Paris for 9 people..
    Joe Pesci was involved. Do the math. He was a "business associate."

  10. #610
    lubba wubba dub dub
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    North Haverbrook
    Posts
    29,054

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by mookie1995 View Post
    Didn't they stay with his brother?
    Yes. Still, nine airplane tickets from Chicago to Paris ain't cheap.
    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

    Women and I have an understanding. They tend to stay away from me, and I tend to understand that I'm repulsive to them. It's not my favorite understanding.

  11. #611
    DYKWIA? FadeToBlack&Gold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    America's Great Comeback City™, LOL
    Posts
    24,682

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    Yes. Still, nine airplane tickets from Chicago to Paris ain't cheap.
    Remember, they put the kids in Y and themselves in F. Even in 1990 USD, I would say that easily works out to $20-25k.
    Michigan Tech: "Working with scraps and guys from places so remote that Houghton seems like a metropolis"

    Boosh Factor (4/04/17): 5.242424

  12. #612
    We'll be back. Hammer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Location
    Shopping for a defenseman to replace Lidstrom
    Posts
    35,778

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Barbara Sinatra, 90.

    Without looking, I think she's the last spouse of a Marx brother, too.
    Last edited by Hammer; Today at 01:31 PM.

  13. #613

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Secret Lair
    Posts
    50,891

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hammer View Post
    Barbara Sinatra, 90.

    Without looking, I think she's the last spouse of a Marx brother, too.
    Technically, an ex-Marx brother. Zeppo had left the act prior to the marriage. He had in fact become a millionaire from his engineering, and it appears Barbara was primarily attracted to money.
    2016 USCHO POSER OF THE YEAR

    "The strength and power of despotism consists wholly in the fear of resistance." -- Thomas Paine

    Cornell University
    NCAA Champion 1967, 1970
    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
    Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014

  14. #614
    Veteran leswp1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    27,508

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jimjamesak View Post
    Kep, I'm upset because you have a very flippant attitude and are seemingly very ignorant about this. I can concede I don't know everything about you but I have to deal with the information given.

    I don't feel sad for just him, I feel sad for everyone involved including him. Yeah it's an awful thing the family is dealing with, but it doesn't make Chester a bad person. It's an unimaginable pain to be abused as a kid, I see it every day with my wife. I'd give anything to have her be able to sleep just one night without a nightmare. These people have been injured, it's just an injury you can't see. Yeah he led a life but living isn't the same as being in control. You can suppress things and still go about a daily life, it doesn't mean you're in control, it just means you've suppressed it enough to get through. It's still there, it still eats at you, it still hurts you, it still controls you. I went through a terrible depression cycle for a over year yet I was still able to go to work and play games and post on here yet, I didn't have any control to my life. I was just going through my routine. It's hard to describe, you're living but you don't really have any part of it.

    The worst thing is your attitude heavily contributes to the stigma of mental illness. It really gives a feeling that we're all just weak people who only care about ourselves. You may not mean that, but that's my takeaway from it, and it's frustrating.
    This says some of what I was thinking. (coming in late, have been traveling) Not sure why we can't feel for both the person who is suicidal and those left behind. Dealt with numerous suicidal folks over the yrs and they are not all the same. You can't put them all in a box and paint them with the same brush. I have seen people who were angry with the world and suicidal- their attempts were a way to lash out at those around them. I have seen people in so much emotional pain they could not bear the thought of any more. They couldn't see an end to the tunnel, felt a sense of hopelessness at the chronicity with no relief and their pain consumed them- a very different sort of attempt. If those people were in intractable pain from something physically definable would we be passing the same judgement? Sort of like asking someone to put their hand in a fire and hold it there simply because they should suck it up for others. Instinct makes you pull your hand away. I truly believe for some people this is the same sort of response- escape from pain.

    There is a huge difference between being anxious and depressed and being bad enough to feel suicide is the only option. There are so many variables- have they been successfully medicated before when they have felt this way? Do they have supports? Do they feel a burden on those around them and feel the people would be better off without them? If you haven't actually been deeply depressed and suicidal the logic of suicide seems warped (it is) You can be logical all you want and say how others suffer with the attempt or success. That is true. They do suffer but many people who are suicidal can't think of that clearly or really believe they are doing the right thing. This may not be logical to us but I have had patients who truly believe that the presence of them always depressed, anxious etc is stunting the people around them and holding them back from what they could do.

    Being angry at the situation when someone is successful is a gut reaction. I think it is easier to be angry at the person who successfully suicided than to acknowledge that it plain sucks for everyone. I am angry there is no foolproof treatment. I have had pts who have suffered for yrs- tried everything, been hospitalized multiple times and have described horrible mental anguish. At times their families have expressed the wish they would be successful because it is so painful to watch them hurt without relief. No way to know what this guy tried, went thru, what his family thinks. They are the ones that can pass judgement. We can only guess

    (long post. sorry- feeling philosophical)

  15. #615

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Secret Lair
    Posts
    50,891

    Re: DEAD THREAD 2017: "This guy here is dead!"..."Cross him off, then!"

    Well, I don't mean to pis-s people off by being flippant. I'm actually very serious about my position, but I could present it without the venom, so for that I am sorry.

    I do understand the issue and have personal experience with it. I respect that we have different opinions, but just as I don't indict you for yours please do the same. I have explained (inartfully) why I refuse to mourn a suicide as anything but a selfish jerk, and see the act not as a tragedy but as a sh-tty thing to do to the survivors.
    2016 USCHO POSER OF THE YEAR

    "The strength and power of despotism consists wholly in the fear of resistance." -- Thomas Paine

    Cornell University
    NCAA Champion 1967, 1970
    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
    Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •