UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

[Nick Papagiorgio]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

Lets face it UNH is now the red headed step child of Hockey East....

It used to be just in the month of March (and that extended beyond the bounds of Hockey East). Kind of a bummer to see this happen but it's all cyclical.

[joecct]

02's and now 03's flying off the shevles. Northeastern just got two top end 02s, Penn State just got a top 03.

===00--01--02--total
BC - 5----8----4----19
BU-- 4----7----2----13
NU---4----5---4---13
PC----2(5)--1--2---8
UConn3---5---0----8
Maine-3(1)---4---0----8
VM------4--2---1---7
Mass--3---0---0---3
UNH--2---0---0(1)--3
Lowell1---0---0---1
Merr--2---0---0---2

Providence lost three 00s to junior hockey
Maine lost an 00 to junior hockey
UNH lost 02 to decommitment

All HE programs got commitments this summer, except UNH and Merrimack

Wonder how many of the BC 19 will actually make it to BC?

[e.cat]

From an upcoming article previewing the incoming UNH freshman players:



5 out of the 7 freshmen in the 2017-18 season - Max Gildon, Benton Maass, James Miller, Eric MacAdams, and Kohei Sato - verbally committed after Coach Souza and Stewart came to UNH. Charlie Kelleher and Mike Robinson verbally committed when Coach Borek was still at UNH.

The 2016-17 UNH freshman class was ranked 26th in the nation on the average star score (behind BU, Providence, Northeastern, BC, Notre Dame, UMass Lowell, and Vermont) and 25th on the point system. There are 60 Division I men's hockey programs.

Don't confuse the issue with facts and details Mike

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

02's and now 03's flying off the shevles. Northeastern just got two top end 02s, Penn State just got a top 03.

===00--01--02--total
BC - 5----8----4----19
BU-- 4----7----2----13
NU---4----5---4---13
PC----2(5)--1--2---8
UConn3---5---0----8
Maine-3(1)---4---0----8
VM------4--2---1---7
Mass--3---0---0---3
UNH--2---0---0(1)--3
Lowell1---0---0---1
Merr--2---0---0---2

Providence lost three 00s to junior hockey
Maine lost an 00 to junior hockey
UNH lost 02 to decommitment

All HE programs got commitments this summer, except UNH and Merrimack

You didn't expect the guys would actually be working over the summer, now did you?

If you were following the other UNH thread(s) you know the guys were *busy* elsewhere ...

From an upcoming article previewing the incoming UNH freshman players:

5 out of the 7 freshmen in the 2017-18 season - Max Gildon, Benton Maass, James Miller, Eric MacAdams, and Kohei Sato - verbally committed after Coach Souza and Stewart came to UNH. Charlie Kelleher and Mike Robinson verbally committed when Coach Borek was still at UNH.

The 2016-17 UNH freshman class was ranked 26th in the nation on the average star score (behind BU, Providence, Northeastern, BC, Notre Dame, UMass Lowell, and Vermont) and 25th on the point system. There are 60 Division I men's hockey programs.

26th in the nation doesn't get you into the top 16 (D-1 tourney), unless of course you have a staff of coaches capable of coaching guys up regularly. Not sure that's been on display in recent seasons in Durham ...

[Lemonade]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

You didn't expect the guys would actually be working over the summer, now did you?

If you were following the other UNH thread(s) you know the guys were *busy* elsewhere ...



26th in the nation doesn't get you into the top 16 (D-1 tourney), unless of course you have a staff of coaches capable of coaching guys up regularly. Not sure that's been on display in recent seasons in Durham ...

===00--01--02--total
BC - 5----8----4----19
BU-- 4----7----2----13
NU---4----5---4---13
UConn- 3---5---0----8
Maine-3---4---0----7
VM------4--2---1---7
PC----2--1--2---5
Mass--3---0---0---3
Merr--2---0---0---2
UNH--2---0---0--2
Lowell 1---0---0---1

This my fellow fans is NOT GOOD! I think the decline is just starting to be honest. I think we can all agree that BU/BC/PC/UML are on a different level at this point. BU/PC/BC are able to pluck the blue chip younger recruits while ULowell focuses on the older late bloomer players. UMass has momentum with new coach an top 3 recruiting class (Cale Makar effect) but program is "on the rise". Northeastern is still the 2nd tier Boston school but at least they are aggressive in recruiting. UConn is getting traction and is active in recruiting by adding 8 recruits. Vermont is steady and hovering around a top 20 program. UMAINE in process of rebuilding with Gendron and then you have UNH who seems rudderless at the moment. UGH.

[Dan]

Don't confuse the issue with facts and details Mike

Fact, huh? That's an interesting take on one website's opinion. It's not a fact because it's what you two want to hear. Here's Jeff Cox describing last years class not as "26th best" (which is NOT good, btw) but as LAST in Hockey East!

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbncollegehockey.com/platform/amp/college-hockey-recruiting-ncaa/2016/8/4/11828292/hockey-east-recruiting-rankings-providence-boston-university-boston-college-northeastern

Both watcher and I have credited Souza for this seasons class - to a point. This years class was salvaged with the addition of Gildon - but let's be honest about why he's here. He's here because Wisconsin dumped him extremely late in the recruiting cycle. That's not a recruiting strategy that builds successful teams in the long term...

The other player cited by the Neutral Zone ranking is not even a Souza recruit. It's CK, who committed to UNH for one reason - because Tyler picked UNH. That's not a recruiting strategy that builds successful teams in the long term...

I'm not sure where/when C-H-C got his information on NZ ranking UNHs 2017 class anyway - I posted the link on this page a week or two ago when they tweeted an image of their top ten (8/23). UNH wasn't involved - which puts them at least 11th behind the likes of UMass, Vermont, Minnesota State, Arizona State and Penn State. By your logic it's a 'fact' that UNH is recruiting worse than Minnesota St and a third year program - but, yeah, everything is right in the world of UNH recruiting...

This is not the eighth-best recruiting class in the country - and even though that's now on the internet it's still just my opinion!

* Gildon is a great pick up. They got extremely lucky.
* Kelleher will be very good. He won't be Tyler.
* Maass is getting a lot of hype. Actual facts - he's 18 with barely 30 games played above HS hockey (and all in the NAHL). Expecting him to be an immediate top-4, impact player may be unfair to him.
* Robinson may be better than what they have in G currently. It's a low bar. He couldn't make the grade in the USHL.
* I'm one of only a few who seem to even expect Miller to see much ice early in his career.

It's an average class by NCAA standards and a below average class by UNH standards. There are two players who appear to be locks to make an impact at the NCAA level, one you can dream on, a couple average to more kids and a whole lot of question marks. But that's not even what's sparked frustration with UNH recruiting and it's disingenuous to argue that it was.

The FACTS of the situation are the following. UNH has two 00's and ZERO players beyond that. UNH only has ten outstanding commitments in total. Three of those players verballed to Borek. Just three players have verballed to UNH in the last calendar year. Only two of the ten committed players project as likely to be above average or more at the NCAA level...

Let's imagine this class turns out to be great and they all stick around for their upper class seasons - it's not even worth wondering if they can return to the top of HE when we are stuck wondering who they are even going to be playing with? The best options are getting snapped up every day. Soon UNH will be stuck hoping all these guys all have younger brothers (why isn't little Gildon committed yet?) and that Max Gildon's become available every summer (they don't). FYI, that's not a recruiting strategy that builds successful teams in the long term...

Things are not good at UNH - and it's OK to voice wishes that they get better. Burying ones head in blue and white sand is not the only option.

[Dan]

With all due respect Dan, why would any top-end talent want to join a team that lost 6 games last season to the likes of Bentley (5-1), Colorado College (4-3), Arizona State (5-4), Dartmouth (5-1), and Yukon (5-3, 4-2), along with a 2-2 tie against mighty AHC powerhouse Sacred Heart? I still think that Umile pulling Tirone when down 4-1 to Dartmouth in Hanover last season was about the most disrespectful, if not stupidest, thing that I have seen a college hockey coach do to his players in recent memory. Save that treatment of players for the locker room, I say.

Because UNH is historically an extremely successful and prestigious NCAA hockey program that can sell recruits on being part of an exciting, rewarding and even quick (if done right) turn-around.

Because academically, UNH has a strong offering of highly regarded majors, a large alumni network, newer academic buildings, smaller class sizes and opportunity. Without any notable barriers to entry for less talented students.

Because the location is great, the campus is beautiful, Boston and the mountains are an hour away, Portsmouth and the beaches are even closer and Durham is a great town.

Because the Whitt is still a MUCH better facility than most in college hockey and the atmosphere is virtually unmatched in its prime and being the player who brings that back would be epic.

Because elite kids are dying to verbal and being the first one to ask carries A LOT of weight. The first elite kid will attract another then another (assuming you don't land one and sit on your hands...)

Because UNH has a history of turning average forwards into top talents and top forwards into Hobey candidates.

Because at all positions UNH plays a fast-paced game revolving around skating and skill and produces gaudy offensive production.

Because there is opportunity for immediate playing time and the ability to make an impact or lead the team as a FR.

Because UNH has sent a lot of players to very successful pro careers - and despite recent struggles still currently boasts NHLers in JVR, TVR, Pesce, Winnik and Smith with Thompson, Sislo, TK and Poturalski sniffing the fringes...

Because UNH hockey has such a family atmosphere that I lost count of how many alumni - most who were nowhere near actually playing with Josh Ciocco - are financially assisting him in his health scare.

Because it's DI hockey with significant scholarship money available.

Because they play in the deepest and most competitive hockey conference in the country. And they (used to) consistently play one of the most challenging non-conference schedules, which meant you'd be on TV and in front of a number of scouts almost every night.

There is SO much to sell at UNH - they just need a good salesman, good coaching and strong athletic department support. You could question whether they have any at the moment. That's what's hurting recruiting. Not UNH and what it has to offer. The people doing the job. Perhaps Souza is the right guy once he's or from under Umile's thumb, but that is lookin less and less likely. The right guy recruits too and wins at UNH, without any problems...

It may be easier to win at other schools. Maybe out of 100 coaches 95 could win at a very good level at BC or BU and only 65 could at UNH. That's still pretty good odds. Support the program as an AD and ensure you have one of those 65 'right guy' coaches. Then enjoy the winning and great recruiting..

Hastings is winning at Minnesota St - a place where it was 'impossible' to win just a few years ago. Bergeron is turning BG around - a place where it was so hard to win they almost cut the program. Pearson won at Tech - a place where it was 'impossible' to win forever! Murray has WMU as a power - despite the fact that it used to be a place where you just couldn't compete. Blaise turned Omaha into a recruiting destination - before his arrival no one wanted to play there and they didn't win. Blast lands top talent at Miami - before he arrived it was 'impossible' to attract recruits to a losing program in the middle of no where.

It's not the school, admissions, facilities or the record. AD support, coaching, recruiting and actually believing you're worth a **** is what wins. UNH is missing THAT.

If UNH admin and coaches continue to half-heartedly support the program, be satisfied with the coaching and recruiting we're seeing today, whine about what the university doesn't haveor worse, whine about not winning while doing zip to increase the chances of...winning...this is who they'll always be.

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

I'd not go so far to say things are not good at UNH. The indicators of recruiting are, by many meansures, not positive.
Two important caveats:
1.The classes are not full, and perhaps UNH can pull in a late superior recruit, as per Gildon or Wyse. Not conventional or comfortable (think leaving studying to night before test), but perhaps its how Souza works.
2."general ratings" are not the end-all to telling how the players will actually perform. While the distribtuion of early commits seems to track well with the actual standings, there is one outlier -- lowell. A few coaches have the ability to spot talent not generally well-known. Lowell's team has excelled on the untraditional model. Grant Standbrook pulled kids out of nowhere. Perhaps we can be another outlier????? Some of Souza's recent recruits (Verrier) have shown more promise than when they first got their ratings.

For as unhappy as I am about the lack of a proven track record, let's see how they do at UNH before making a final concluding that UNH is off track. Call me skeptical, but open minded.

Be consistent, however. Don't get excited when we get a top recruit, like Commesso or Gildon.

But if you want to do live by Neutral Zone ratings, for 2018 and beyond, Sweeney, Pierson and Verrier are midlin 3.5 ratings, and Wazny 3.75.

[Dan]

I'd not go so far to say things are not good at UNH. The indicators of recruiting are, by many meansures, not positive.
Two important caveats:
1.The classes are not full, and perhaps UNH can pull in a late superior recruit, as per Gildon or Wyse. Not conventional or comfortable (think leaving studying to night before test), but perhaps its how Souza works.
2."general ratings" are not the end-all to telling how the players will actually perform. While the distribtuion of early commits seems to track well with the actual standings, there is one outlier -- lowell. A few coaches have the ability to spot talent not generally well-known. Lowell's team has excelled on the untraditional model. Grant Standbrook pulled kids out of nowhere. Perhaps we can be another outlier????? Some of Souza's recent recruits (Verrier) have shown more promise than when they first got their ratings.

For as unhappy as I am about the lack of a proven track record, let's see how they do at UNH before making a final concluding that UNH is off track. Call me skeptical, but open minded.

But if you want to do live by Neutral Zone ratings, for 2018 and beyond, Sweeney, Pierson and Verrier are midlin 3.5 ratings, and Wazny 3.75.

I'd rather rank kids by how many NCAA college coaches affirm their impact ability by offering scholarships than a pay-for-content website who has a vested business interest in ranking every kid 'highly'.

Lowell recruits a lot more 'proven track-record' kids than they ever get credit for. They fish in different pools and offer later than most - they have earned the benefit of the doubt with not only the performance of their recruits, but the ability of their coaching staff to maximize talent, effort and development. There's a reason it's so notable - few coaches have the ability to win that way. Bazin is an outlier and expecting others to pull off what he does is very unlikely IMO...

At Maine Standbrook pulled elite talent, not random kids, out of nowhere. They weren't recruiting 2 stars and turning them into Hobey candidates. They were getting GUYS. Recruiting was entirely different then, when spending time on the road and going to off the grid cities and games was a moneyball type factor. He went the extra mile to get talent - that's why he's a legend. Thats not the approach we're seeing here...

You really don't think things are bad when we're left hoping for last minute recruiting miracles or that Souza is actual just the next Bazin (a complete and utter unicorn in terms of NCAA coaches). You can cram for a test at the last minute once or twice and get by - you're not graduating cum laude with that approach...

---

UNH's recruiting pipeline for me is Crookshank, Wazny and a bunch of the kind of kids you might expect to take a shot at late in recruiting. Late bloomers, raw kids and bottom six/pairing types are the kids you grab lad. You don't sit around hoping blue chippers land in your lap. Chase talent early, round things out later. UNH is doing the opposite...

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

You really don't think things are bad when we're left hoping for last minute recruiting miracles or that Souza is actual just the next Bazin (a complete and utter unicorn in terms of NCAA coaches). You can cram for a test at the last minute once or twice and get by - you're not graduating cum laude with that approach...

Yes, but as a parent or supporter, even when you know the kid is screwed going into the exam, you have to encourage them rather than crush them going into the exam. We've haranged Mike enough about the refusal to study all year round. Now that the test is here, we should send him off to class with a "give it your best shot, you never know...." and wait for the report card to come in the mail.

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

Don't confuse the issue with facts and details Mike

From an upcoming article on the 2017-18 UNH incoming freshman class:

"Neutral Zone, a top amateur hockey scouting service, ranked the 2017-18 UNH recruiting class as the 8th highest in all of Division I hockey utilizing their measurement of overall quality of recruits. Neutral Zone rated the UNH frosh (3 defensemen, 1 goalie, 3 forwards) an average score of 3.93 Stars on a 5-Star scale - a higher overall quality score than all Hockey East programs except Boston University (4.22) and Boston College (4.05). Two UNH freshmen were awarded ratings of 4 stars or above - Max Gildon (4.75 Stars) and Charlie Kelleher (4.25 Stars). On their weighted, algorithm point system, Neutral Zone rated UNH as the 14th best recruiting class in Division I."

Here's some of the data on the 2017-18 incoming classes from Neutral Zone as of September 8, 2017:

"Highest Overall Quality" as measured by average star rating

#1 Michigan (6 commits) - 4.33 star average (on 5-point scale)
#2 Minnesota (7) - 4.29
#3 North Dakota (8) - 4.25
#4 BU (9) - 4.22
#5 Wisconsin (7) - 4.11
#6 BC (5) - 4.05
#7 Denver (9) - 4.03
#8 UNH (7) - 3.93
#9 Penn State (8) - 3.91
#10 Providence (8) - 3.91
#11 Minnesota State (9) - 3.89
#12 UConn (5) - 3.85
#13 Quinnipiac (8) - 3.84
#14 Miami (7) - 3.82
#15 UMass Amherst (13) - 3.81
#16 Notre Dame (6) - 3.79
#17 Union (9) - 3.78
#18 Clarkson (8) - 3.78
#19 Vermont (12) - 3.77
#20 Cornell (10) - 3.75

Other Hockey East Schools:
#29 Northeastern (9) - 3.69
#33 Merrimack (8) - 3.62
#36 Maine (10) - 3.60
#50 UMass Lowell (6) - 3.50

"Total Points" (based on weighted algorithm)

#1 North Dakota (8 commits) - 1120
#2 BU (9) - 1105
#3 UMass Amherst (13) - 1081
#4 Minnesota (7) - 1000
#5 Denver (9) - 884
#6 Michigan (6) - 861
#7 Vermont (12) - 813
#8 Minnesota State (9) - 789
#9 Penn State (8) - 689
#10 Wisconsin (7) - 675
#11 Providence (8) - 657
#12 Colorado College (13) - 653
#13 St Lawrence (10) - 647
#14 UNH (7) - 643
#15 Cornell (10) - 641
#16 Michigan State (9) - 631
#17 Union (9) - 617
#18 Northeastern (9) - 605
#19 Quinnipiac (8) - 603
#20 Clarkson (8) - 598

Other Hockey East Schools:
#30 Maine (10) - 494
#31 BC (10) - 482
#36 Merrimack (8) - 466
#43 UConn (5) - 423
#52 UMass Lowell (6) - 305

Here's a link to the list of Neutral Zone Scouts
The large majority of them are former college and/or pro players, coaches, and/or team scouts.
Incidently, former UNH All-American Sean Collins is an NZ Head Scout in the USA. There are many NZ scouts who cover Canada.

[Drew S.]

From an upcoming article on the 2017-18 UNH incoming freshman class:

"Neutral Zone, a top amateur hockey scouting service, ranked the 2017-18 UNH recruiting class as the 8th highest in all of Division I hockey utilizing their measurement of overall quality of recruits. Neutral Zone rated the UNH frosh (3 defensemen, 1 goalie, 3 forwards) an average score of 3.93 Stars on a 5-Star scale - a higher overall quality score than all Hockey East programs except Boston University (4.22) and Boston College (4.05). Two UNH freshmen were awarded ratings of 4 stars or above - Max Gildon (4.75 Stars) and Charlie Kelleher (4.25 Stars). On their weighted, algorithm point system, Neutral Zone rated UNH as the 14th best recruiting class in Division I."

Here's some of the data from Neutral Zone as of September 8, 2017:

"Highest Overall Quality" as measured by average star rating

#1 Michigan (6 commits) - 4.33 star average (on 5-point scale)
#2 Minnesota (7) - 4.29
#3 North Dakota (8) - 4.25
#4 BU (9) - 4.22
#5 Wisconsin (7) - 4.11
#6 BC (5) - 4.05
#7 Denver (9) - 4.03
#8 UNH (7) - 3.93
#9 Penn State (8) - 3.91
#10 Providence (8) - 3.91
#11 Minnesota State (9) - 3.89
#12 UConn (5) - 3.85
#13 Quinnipiac (8) - 3.84
#14 Miami (7) - 3.82
#15 UMass Amherst (13) - 3.81
#16 Notre Dame (6) - 3.79
#17 Union (9) - 3.78
#18 Clarkson (8) - 3.78
#19 Vermont (12) - 3.77
#20 Cornell (10) - 3.75

Other Hockey East Schools:
#29 Northeastern (9) - 3.69
#33 Merrimack (8) - 3.62
#36 Maine (10) - 3.60
#50 UMass Lowell (6) - 3.50

"Total Points" (based on weighted algorithm)

#1 North Dakota (8 commits) - 1120
#2 BU (9) - 1105
#3 UMass Amherst (13) - 1081
#4 Minnesota (7) - 1000
#5 Denver (9) - 884
#6 Michigan (6) - 861
#7 Vermont (12) - 813
#8 Minnesota State (9) - 789
#9 Penn State (8) - 689
#10 Wisconsin (7) - 675
#11 Providence (8) - 657
#12 Colorado College (13) - 653
#13 St Lawrence (10) - 647
#14 UNH (7) - 643
#15 Cornell (10) - 641
#16 Michigan State (9) - 631
#17 Union (9) - 617
#18 Northeastern (9) - 605
#19 Quinnipiac (8) - 603
#20 Clarkson (8) - 598

Other Hockey East Schools:
#30 Maine (10) - 494
#31 BC (10) - 482
#36 Merrimack (8) - 466
#43 UConn (5) - 423
#52 UMass Lowell (6) - 305

Here's a link to the list of Neutral Zone Scouts
The large majority of them are former college and/or pro players, coaches, and team scouts.
Incidently, former UNH All-American Sean Collins is an NZ Head Scout in the USA. There are many NZ scouts who cover Canada.

Does it factor money into the equation? A 50% four star is much better than a full ride four star. The money part makes assessing recruits difficult because in a lot of cases you don't know exactly how much each player is getting.

It seems to me the big difference between the Maine and UNH teams now versus the glory days is a lot of players now don't improve very much. There was a day both would get guys who would go 10-20-30-40 through their four years with a decent all around game. I'm not sure if kids don't work as hard now or if they get spread out to ECAC and Atlantic Hockey teams more. Hopefully in the next five years or so we're both relevant again.

[C-H-C]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

Does it factor money into the equation? A 50% four star is much better than a full ride four star. The money part makes assessing recruits difficult because in a lot of cases you don't know exactly how much each player is getting.

It seems to me the big difference between the Maine and UNH teams now versus the glory days is a lot of players now don't improve very much. There was a day both would get guys who would go 10-20-30-40 through their four years with a decent all around game. I'm not sure if kids don't work as hard now or if they get spread out to ECAC and Atlantic Hockey teams more. Hopefully in the next five years or so we're both relevant again.

Unless a player reveals his scholarship amount, and most don't, that information is usually not made public. By and large, I don't think the NZ scouts are privy to that information. My guess is most commits rated 4-stars or above receive either full or close to full scholarships.

Each recruit in the NZ database are personally evaluated, in game situations, by one or more NZ scout at least once a year, and sometimes more frequently. The overall rating that NZ gives a recruit is a small portion of the assessment information they provide. The NZ site provides detailed, extensive information on the recruit's skills and areas for improvement.

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

Yes, but as a parent or supporter, even when you know the kid is screwed going into the exam, you have to encourage them rather than crush them going into the exam. We've haranged Mike enough about the refusal to study all year round. Now that the test is here, we should send him off to class with a "give it your best shot, you never know...." and wait for the report card to come in the mail.

This. In the meantime, we can direct any blistering criticisms to Mike's current boss AND his future boss ...

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2017 and Beyond

This. In the meantime, we can direct any blistering criticisms to Mike's current boss AND his future boss ...

...and who knows, maybe give Mike a break given his circumstances that he was placed in...just sayin'. The guy needs a chance. He has to get out from under years of the same old, same old....can't wait to see what he does!