Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

    Originally posted by Lemonade View Post
    So Wisconsin has a 38 recruited man roster for 2020-2021 (24 forwards, 11 Defense, 1 goalie and will need 2 more) now...
    The JV will be national JV champs for sure.

    Comment


    • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

      Originally posted by MadCityRich View Post
      Pretty cool, eh? That was the case with us about 10 years ago. We see a lot of those guys in the NHL.

      Yeah... it is.

      Hockey is an incredibly small world.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Wisko McBadgerton View Post
        ...Cole is a 16 year old on the U17's that has drawn comparisons to Paul Kariya -- so that's not too shabby a start for him...
        Aren't they all 16yr olds on the Under 17 team? The 17 yr olds are on the U18 team, while the 18 yr olds are in juniors.
        CCT '77 & '78
        4 kids
        5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
        1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

        ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
        - Benjamin Franklin

        Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

        I want to live forever. So far, so good.

        Comment


        • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

          Originally posted by Lemonade View Post
          So Wisconsin has a 38 recruited man roster for 2020-2021 (24 forwards, 11 Defense, 1 goalie and will need 2 more) now...
          LOL, because every verbal commit ends up on campus (they all continue to develop into D1 caliber players, none go to Major Junior, none change their own mind and want to go elsewhere), every player stays to their senior year (none are ever an academic/criminal/injury casualty, none ever go pro, none ever don't like their role on a team and transfer), and every kid on a spreadsheet 2 or 3 years out that might be coming comes in their 18 year old season and doesn't spend a year or two playing junior.

          In case you are being serious (or if you weren't but someone else reads this and doesn't quite get how things work) here's a little breakdown of the Badgers 20/21 fortunes. First, at this point I don't see the Peltonen brothers at Wisconsin...the Dman is an interesting prospect but with a deep stable of guys in front of him...I would suspect a greener pasture is better for all involved, and the brother that is a forward is playing NAHL in his 19 year old season. Second, guys that are drafted don't usually make it to their senior seasons in college as their drafting teams don't like risking assets they spent a draft pick on for nothing as players can exercise their option for free agency in the summer after their senior year. That reality makes the likelihood of any of Weissbach, Kalynuk, Ess, or Inamoto playing in 20/21 as seniors that were drafted not all that good. Next, teams that bring in talent that gets selected in the first few rounds of the draft are lucky to get a season or two at best out of those players before they move on to pro. I've seen K'Andre Miller, Turcotte, and the younger Caufield in first round mock drafts, Sampo Ranta is a grade A in Central Scouting's last update, and Emberson and the Krygier's are all B rated. Several of these guys will not be playing what would be their junior year (or sophomore season in the case of Caufield/Turcotte). Last, guys like Koufis, Lavelle, and even Leyh will all be actual college freshman based on their academic class which is still a little unusual to have kids go straight from high school to college hockey and skip a year or even 2 of junior A. Hopefully all these guys are that good, but realistically one or even 2 won't be.

          There is a fine line between the dark days of the Eaves Era where a guy like Dougherty bails and your pipeline doesn't have anything you can fall back on and you end up scrambling into a Jake Bunz or Opilka bails and you end up with Jurusik having to play virtually every minute in net as an 18 year old and having a pipeline with enough talent to be in the mix nationally every year.

          Comment


          • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

            markwojo - the voice of reason. Thank you.
            gwhinwi's: Wisconsin Badgers Recruiting Spreadsheet & Individual Face-Off Statistics

            EODS: De-Commit / Non-Pro Early Departure List

            Comment


            • Originally posted by joecct View Post
              Aren't they all 16yr olds on the Under 17 team? The 17 yr olds are on the U18 team, while the 18 yr olds are in juniors.
              It's all by birth year, so the late birthdays turn 16 early in the season, and the early birthdays will turn 17 early in the new calendar year. Cole Caufield is the oldest player on the U17 roster.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by WiscTJK View Post
                markwojo - the voice of reason. Thank you.
                Everyone understands exactly what Wisconsin is doing - and not everyone finds the Badger strategy particularly ethical in spite of markwojo's long winded explanation nor the anticipated response of 'everyone is doing it'...

                The staff is gobbling up as many commits as they can, taking them off the market for other schools with no intention of any real level of commitment on schools end. In many cases the continued, private evaluation has resulted in lesser scholarships than originally agreed upon, pulled offers and recruits replaced when better options become available.

                I'm not going to get into a debate about whether the kids know what they're getting into or what's right in recruiting today. Well disagree and it's not worth my time. But don't pretend you don't know exactly what's really going on and act shocked when it raises eyebrows around the country...

                You guys may love it. Others like Lemonade do not. Do you need his validation for some reason??

                The key to this strategy is to drop the right recruits! I hope for your sake, the kids you've dumped lately work out better than dumping Gildon has...
                Last edited by Dan; 11-21-2017, 12:44 PM.
                Live Free or Die!!
                Miami University '03

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Dan View Post
                  Everyone understands exactly what Wisconsin is doing - and not everyone finds the Badger strategy particularly ethical in spite of markwojo's long winded explanation nor the anticipated response of 'everyone is doing it'...

                  The staff is gobbling up as many commits as they can, taking them off the market for other schools with no intention of any real level of commitment on schools end. In many cases the continued, private evaluation has resulted in lesser scholarships than originally agreed upon, pulled offers and recruits replaced when better options become available.

                  I'm not going to get into a debate about whether the kids know what they're getting into or what's right in recruiting today. Well disagree and it's not worth my time. But don't pretend you don't know exactly what's really going on and act shocked when it raises eyebrows around the country...

                  You guys may love it. Others like Lemonade do not. Do you need his validation for some reason??

                  The key to this strategy is to drop the right recruits! I hope for your sake, the kids you've dumped lately work out better than dumping Gildon has...
                  Have they walked on any players Oseicki has recruited? I don't think so.
                  It's natural for a new staff to want to stockpile the cupboard with their own guys. Especially I think when the coaching philosophies between Granato and Eaves are so different.
                  Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                  "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                  "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                  Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                  Comment


                  • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

                    Originally posted by Dan View Post

                    I'm not going to get into a debate about whether the kids know what they're getting into or what's right in recruiting today. ...

                    So you're going to completely ignore a key component to the situation?

                    The whole thing is a racket on both sides.


                    The crap I've seen from players and families is certainly equal to the crap I've seen from coaches and organizations.

                    All are trying to get what's best for themselves.

                    Comment


                    • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

                      Its about intent and integrity. I fully understand the dynamics of todays dog eat dog recruiting wars. Players can and will decommit based on their situations and schools will push off players they are no longer interested in. Historically, its been a gentlemans agreement that a school would offer and a kid commits and they are bound by their word. Things change, coaches change, players change....understood. Based on stats roughly 10% of kids will decommit for a variety of reasons. However - what Wisconsin is doing is blatant over recruiting. With 18 scholarships and roughly 24 roster spots Wisconsin is banking on a 37% decommit rate? That takes into consideration that Wisconsin wont commit any more players for the next 2 years! What Wisconsin is doing isnt stockpiling its misleading/shady and will result in a lot of kids out of spots. Sorry to rain on your commitment parade buts that the honest take on it.
                      Last edited by Lemonade; 11-21-2017, 01:52 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Gurtholfin View Post
                        So you're going to completely ignore a key component to the situation?

                        The whole thing is a racket on both sides.


                        The crap I've seen from players and families is certainly equal to the crap I've seen from coaches and organizations.

                        All are trying to get what's best for themselves.
                        No, as I stated ("we'll disagree"), I disagree with you. That may be true in a few individual cases, but it's often just rationalization from coaches (or fans) who want to excuse their own behavior. I live in the recruiting world - this behavior is not what you get from most kids/families. It just isn't. No matter what you want to think or have seen in isolated instances.

                        They may not have dumped an Osiecki recruit yet - but they will if they continue with this current pace and process. Their plan is quite simply birds in the hand while they look through the bush. Again, if that's ok with you guys great. Others may not feel like giving them the same credit for hanging onto Eaves recruits for two years as insurance policies while they actively search for their own players. It's knowing you want to, but not actually dumping your GF while hitting on other women in a conscious attempt to find someone better...
                        Last edited by Dan; 11-21-2017, 02:06 PM.
                        Live Free or Die!!
                        Miami University '03

                        Comment


                        • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

                          Originally posted by Lemonade View Post
                          Its about intent and integrity. I fully understand the dynamics of todays dog eat dog recruiting wars. Players can and will decommit based on their situations and schools will push off players they are no longer interested in. Historically, its been a gentlemans agreement that a school would offer and a kid commits and they are bound by their word. Things change, coaches change, players change....understood. Based on stats roughly 10% of kids will decommit for a variety of reasons. However - what Wisconsin is doing is blatant over recruiting. With 18 scholarships and roughly 24 roster spots Wisconsin is banking on a 37% decommit rate? That takes into consideration that Wisconsin wont commit any more players for the next 2 years! What Wisconsin is doing isnt stockpiling its misleading/shady and will result in a lot of kids out of spots.

                          Do you believe that the players and their families don't understand this?

                          Do you believe that they aren't actively working on backup plans or looking for other, better offers?


                          Again... hockey is an incredibly small world. If word gets out that Wisconsin is treating players ****tier than everyone else, players won't come here. Gone are the days that kids grow up with their heart set on a specific program and will take a lot of crap for the opportunity.

                          Sure, there are some like Mersch, but he's an anomaly in this day and age from what I've experienced. There is no loyalty on either side anymore.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

                            Originally posted by Dan View Post
                            Everyone understands exactly what Wisconsin is doing - and not everyone finds the Badger strategy particularly ethical in spite of markwojo's long winded explanation nor the anticipated response of 'everyone is doing it'...

                            The staff is gobbling up as many commits as they can, taking them off the market for other schools with no intention of any real level of commitment on schools end. In many cases the continued, private evaluation has resulted in lesser scholarships than originally agreed upon, pulled offers and recruits replaced when better options become available.

                            I'm not going to get into a debate about whether the kids know what they're getting into or what's right in recruiting today. Well disagree and it's not worth my time. But don't pretend you don't know exactly what's really going on and act shocked when it raises eyebrows around the country...

                            You guys may love it. Others like Lemonade do not. Do you need his validation for some reason??

                            The key to this strategy is to drop the right recruits! I hope for your sake, the kids you've dumped lately work out better than dumping Gildon has...
                            If by longwinded you mean real reasons the "massive" numbers are not even remotely as massive as some want to pretend....then thanks.

                            I'll try with a little less wind, and specifically address the "horrible" projected 11 dmen for 20/21. Peltonen hasn't signed a LOI and I have my doubts he ever ends up at UW now that the Krygier's have (why would he come to UW to be behind what he is going to be behind to get on the ice and actually play?)...so 11 very well may now be 10. Ess, Inamoto, and Kalynuk would all be seniors that have been drafted...again not unicorn rare but not that many guys drafted actually play their senior year. K'Andre Miller is being projected as a late first or early 2nd round pick and would be entering his junior year at UW for 20/21....again probably better odds he doesn't return for his junior year then he does. Emberson and the Krygier's all also look to be drafted and would be going into their junior years so hardly a given that they all make it to that point. Roepke will be 18 years old....which again not impossible he plays college hockey in 20/21 but probably less likely he is playing junior A. Now add in academic, criminal or injury issues on top of that. Mix in a Canadian junior team being influen$ial and perhaps some of these kids never even setting foot on campus or if they don't adapt as well as everyone tells them they should they bolt (cause we've never seen kids leave in the middle of their freshman season) or an NHL team that drafts them not being fond of the college developmental path and whispering in their ear a "better" path.

                            To argue taking someone "off the market" is absurd and if you are serious then 1980 called and want's its logic back. We saw first hand how off the market Hagemo and Wiercioch were (and that was a decade ago now) and just this past week didn't the first anyone knew of Guttman flipping from SCSU to Denver is a tweet of him signing his LOI? There is no gentleman's agreement and hasn't been for a while.

                            Coaches are in the business of winning and players are in the business of getting the best circumstances for themselves (best scholarship package/percentage, best level of team, etc) and sometimes those intersect and sometime they don't work out.

                            On Gildon, I don't know that that was anything exclusive to a pure hockey decision or purely something from the UW coaching staff either...but hope it continues to work out well for all involved...Max, UNH, the Florida Panthers, UW, whoever got a chance to play at UW in his stead.
                            Last edited by markwojo; 11-21-2017, 02:25 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Lemonade View Post
                              Its about intent and integrity. I fully understand the dynamics of todays dog eat dog recruiting wars. Players can and will decommit based on their situations and schools will push off players they are no longer interested in. Historically, its been a gentlemans agreement that a school would offer and a kid commits and they are bound by their word. Things change, coaches change, players change....understood. Based on stats roughly 10% of kids will decommit for a variety of reasons. However - what Wisconsin is doing is blatant over recruiting. With 18 scholarships and roughly 24 roster spots Wisconsin is banking on a 37% decommit rate? That takes into consideration that Wisconsin wont commit any more players for the next 2 years! What Wisconsin is doing isnt stockpiling its misleading/shady and will result in a lot of kids out of spots. Sorry to rain on your commitment parade buts that the honest take on it.
                              No-one anywhere in hockey has intimated that Tony Granato isn't a character guy. Same for Oseicki. Mark O has done this once before already and his recruiting tactics that helped build the badgers in the mid-2000's have returned and guess what? Star players are coming. No-one but a few fans of opposing teams here are doubting Mark or saying his tactics are shady.
                              Pretty sure Oseicki is open about their rebuild/maintain plans
                              Everything in its right place, Wisconsin Hockey National Champs!


                              "but you're not as confused as him are you. it's not your job to be as confused as Nigel". Tap pt 1.

                              "I think it's ****ing stock. What--? Which part of that is unclear to you? I think it sounds stock to my ears. I mean, do you want me to write it down?" Tap Pt. 2

                              Who???! So What!!!! Big Deal!!!!

                              Comment


                              • Re: Wisconsin Recruiting Vol. III - Building a better tomorrow...today!

                                Originally posted by solovsfett View Post
                                No-one anywhere in hockey has intimated that Tony Granato isn't a character guy. Same for Oseicki. Mark O has done this once before already and his recruiting tactics that helped build the badgers in the mid-2000's have returned and guess what? Star players are coming. No-one but a few fans of opposing teams here are doubting Mark or saying his tactics are shady.
                                Pretty sure Oseicki is open about their rebuild/maintain plans
                                Putting aside for the moment whether Oseicki is a shady recruiter or not, coaches who do recruit using shady tactics continue to do so for one reason - because they can get away with it. Every year there is a fresh batch of recruits, who believe getting a scholarship pulled is something that will never happen to them. If they, or their parents, do ask about the coaches' history it is brushed aside as that past recruit not living up to their end of the bargain and it will never happen to the current prospect! The idea that coaches end up paying the price for these tactics is another recruiting myth, quite frankly. And I don't say this as a spiteful, rival fan - just as someone who takes an interest in recruiting tactics and processes. Ive also made clear, in this very thread, what I think of UNH manipulating NLIs...

                                Originally posted by markwojo View Post
                                To argue taking someone "off the market" is absurd and if you are serious then 1980 called and want's its logic back. We saw first hand how off the market Hagemo and Wiercioch were (and that was a decade ago now) and just this past week didn't the first anyone knew of Guttman flipping from SCSU to Denver is a tweet of him signing his LOI? There is no gentleman's agreement and hasn't been for a while.
                                Jim Montgomery may not acknowledge the gentlemen's agreement (and as a DU season ticket holder, I despise what he did), but it sure seems like Bob Motzko does. The practice of respecting another school's commitments remains in place in the eyes of 90% of college hockey coaches. The ones pushing to remove the agreement - because they care so deeply about the wrongs of early recruiting (cough, cough Bulls...) - are the ones who don't want to be bad mouthed when they poach recruits or have to suffer with their own poor evaluations. This is more rationalization for the bad behavior in the business. As for your plan for early departures amongst the D-corp, etc. If thats how it plays out then there are no problems, but thats not how its played out for more than a few UW recruits.

                                Again, we all know whats happening. If you're OK with it, thats fine. But the sky is blue, don't tell me its green...
                                Last edited by Dan; 11-21-2017, 03:08 PM.
                                Live Free or Die!!
                                Miami University '03

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X