Page 9 of 15 FirstFirst 123456789101112131415 LastLast
Results 161 to 180 of 299

Thread: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

  1. #161
    I'm the Problem ScoobyDoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The 9th Circle
    Posts
    63,583

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Expectations for the debate.

    --------Hillary's Floor is here. If she doesn't reach it she loses.




































    -------Trump floor is here. If he reaches it he wins.
    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

    Glass at 0%: Another First Round Exit.

  2. #162
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    between Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    8,525

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    You had me until the second to last paragraph. Everything before that was eerily agreeable. The second to last paragraph is gibberish. The last paragraph has a few good points and is tinseled with "BENGHAZI!!!!!!!" gibberish.

    Though, if trump screams BENGHAAAAAZZZZZIIIIIII and Clinton doesn't have a good answer, that would be her biggest gaffe.
    It is not about "Benghazi" at all, it is about the phony narrative. It has nothing to do with whether Ambassador Stevens was abandoned in his time of need or not; it is merely about her telling Chelsea in a private email that it was a terrorist attack while at the very same time telling the public that it was a spontaneous demonstration in response to an offensive video.

    I doubt Trump would try to go after her about Benghazi, she's already scripted for that.



    Basically, so far Clinton has been reactive, Trump has been setting the agenda and she has been responding. She needs to disregard him entirely and speak directly to the people about why they should actually want her. Trying to tear Trump down would be a losing strategy for her (imho): I can just see him shrugging his shoulders and saying, "is that all you've got? pfft." and then turning back to the cameras and talking about how great things will be once he is in office.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  3. #163
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2000
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    6,402

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    It is not about "Benghazi" at all, it is about the phony narrative. It has nothing to do with whether Ambassador Stevens was abandoned in his time of need or not; it is merely about her telling Chelsea in a private email that it was a terrorist attack while at the very same time telling the public that it was a spontaneous demonstration in response to an offensive video.

    I doubt Trump would try to go after her about Benghazi, she's already scripted for that.



    Basically, so far Clinton has been reactive, Trump has been setting the agenda and she has been responding. She needs to disregard him entirely and speak directly to the people about why they should actually want her. Trying to tear Trump down would be a losing strategy for her (imho): I can just see him shrugging his shoulders and saying, "is that all you've got? pfft." and then turning back to the cameras and talking about how great things will be once he is in office.
    Jeezus. He can't go after her about Benghazi because there is nothing to go after. That is now crystal clear to all but those who are in desperate need for a conspiracy to rationalize their support for Trump. Benghazi was and continues to be a sham show, and most of the world knows it.

  4. #164
    I'm the Problem ScoobyDoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The 9th Circle
    Posts
    63,583

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by burd View Post
    Jeezus. He can't go after her about Benghazi because there is nothing to go after. That is now crystal clear to all but those who are in desperate need for a conspiracy to rationalize their support for Trump. Benghazi was and continues to be a sham show, and most of the world knows it.
    All except the Republican Party and it's voters. Which is very close to half the electorate.
    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

    Glass at 0%: Another First Round Exit.

  5. #165
    Anti-Semantic Brenthoven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Chez Rube
    Posts
    110,376

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ScoobyDoo View Post
    Expectations for the debate.

    --------Hillary's Floor is here. If she doesn't reach it she loses.




































    -------Trump floor is here. If he reaches it he wins.
    I have to agree with Scooby here.

    Hillary needs to nail it.
    Trump needs to not sh* himself; quite literally.
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
    Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

  6. #166
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    between Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    8,525

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    This is an experiment. Rule L-0 is: write your literal meaning. [emphasis in original] We may introduce other rules (L-1, L-2, ...) as we go, but L-0 is meant to make this thread different from all others.

    The inspiration was a situation in another of our other political threads, where it seemed like two posters were at cross-purposes because one may or may not have been using irony or sarcasm, the other may or may not have understood that and responded in kind, and a third poster then made assumptions about the other two.

    So what if we tried to be as sincere and precise in our meanings as we could? Obviously we will still disagree often, but maybe if we screen out the snark and jokes we would get to the points of disagreement relatively quickly, and understand each other with greater clarity.

    A few thoughts:

    We can still write "In my opinion..." since that's a valid truth statement, but when we do we should try to back the opinion up with facts or at least testable assertions. "In my opinion that is incorrect" is true but not very helpful. "In my opinion that is incorrect because x, y, z..." is much more valuable.

    As far as possible, it is probably a good idea to steer clear of normative or provocative language. "In my opinion that's stupid" might be a true picture of your current mental state but, again, unhelpful. "In my opinion that ignores the evidence that..." is something the other poster can work with.
    ....
    I am very interested in hearing arguments that attempt to refute my assertion and place Trump within the tradition of "normal" (in the sense of, "adhering to democratic norms") candidates. [underline added]
    Check out this story from Politico. It evaluates Trump's ideas without assessing his character or personality. It places his appeal, despite his "rough edges," (so to speak!!) in a broader context that also includes Sanders, Brexit, and the backlash against the PC movement.

    Basically, it says, in the special way that you defined "normal" as "adhering to democratic norms", that Trump is squarely within the tradition of Jefferson, Wilson, FDR, LBJ, and Reagan: a transformative figure who recognizes that the "old order" is no longer working and who is proposing to fix what's wrong with it.

    http://www.politico.com/magazine/sto...as-2016-214244

    Ideas really don’t come along that often. Already in 1840, Alexis de Tocqueville observed that in America, “ideas are a sort of mental dust,” that float about us but seldom cohere or hold our attention. For ideas to take hold, they need to be comprehensive and organizing; they need to order people’s experience of themselves and of their world. In 20th-century America, there were only a few ideas: the Progressivism of Wilson; Roosevelt’s New Deal; the Containment Doctrine of Truman; Johnson’s War on Poverty; Reagan’s audacious claim that the Cold War could be won; and finally, the post-1989 order rooted in “globalization” and “identity politics,” which seems to be unraveling before our eyes.

    Yes, Donald Trump is implicated in that unraveling, cavalierly undermining decades worth of social and political certainties with his rapid-fire Twitter account and persona that only the borough of Queens can produce. But so is Bernie Sanders. And so is Brexit. And so are the growing rumblings in Europe, which are all the more dangerous because there is no exit strategy if the European Union proves unsustainable. It is not so much that there are no new ideas for us to consider in 2016; it is more that the old ones are being taken apart without a clear understanding of what comes next. 2016 is the year of mental dust, where notions that stand apart from the post-1989 order don’t fully cohere. The 2016 election will be the first—but not last—test of whether they can.

    If you listen closely to Trump, you’ll hear a direct repudiation of the system of globalization and identity politics that has defined the world order since the Cold War. There are, in fact, six specific ideas that he has either blurted out or thinly buried in his rhetoric: (1) borders matter; (2) immigration policy matters; (3) national interests, not so-called universal interests, matter; (4) entrepreneurship matters; (5) decentralization matters; (6) PC speech—without which identity politics is inconceivable—must be repudiated.

    These six ideas together point to an end to the unstable experiment with supra- and sub-national sovereignty that many of our elites have guided us toward, siren-like, since 1989. That is what the Trump campaign, ghastly though it may at times be, leads us toward: A future where states matter. A future where people are citizens, working together toward (bourgeois) improvement of their lot. His ideas do not yet fully cohere. They are a bit too much like mental dust that has yet to come together. But they can come together. And Trump is the first American candidate to bring some coherence to them, however raucous his formulations have been. [emphasis added]

    Most of the commentary about Trump has treated him as if he is a one-off, as someone who has emerged because of the peculiar coincidence of his larger-than-life self-absorption and the advent of social media platforms that encourage it. When the world becomes a theater for soliloquy and self-aggrandizement, what else are we to expect?

    But the Trump-as-one-off argument begins to fall apart when we think about what else happened in politics this year. First of all, Trump is not alone. If he alone had emerged—if there were no Bernie Sanders, no Brexit, no crisis in the EU—it would be justifiable to pay attention only to his peculiarities and to the oddities of the moment. But with these other uprisings occurring this year, it’s harder to dismiss Trump as a historical quirk.
    Last edited by FreshFish; 09-22-2016 at 02:41 PM.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  7. #167
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    between Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    8,525

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    So, mulling things over, do I vote purely for my own economic self-interest? or does anything beyond that matter?

    I remember trying to read What's the Matter with Kansas and putting it down pretty quickly. Unless he changed his tone later, the author seemed to base his book on "people who don't do what I think I would do, were I in their situation, must be stupid." It apparently never occurred to him that other people might actually have thoughtful and well-considered reasons for doing something different than he would.

    Anyway,

    our company sells products and services to the ultra-affluent. The past eight years have been perhaps the best time in US history (except maybe the 1880s or so) to be super-wealthy. No matter what you think of the Administration's intentions, the net result has been a real boom for the mega-rich. Clinton looks extremely likely to continue policies that would favor them, and based on fund-raising records, they also think she would be really good for them. So if I want the super-rich to keep getting richer, I should vote for Clinton. Our company will continue to do well and so I will be okay even if minority children will continue to be shafted and even if my own children won't have anywhere near the opportunities to reach their full potential that a growing, vibrant, entrepreneur-driven economy would provide.

    big business likes big government because it restricts competition; the barriers to entry for new firms are very steep given the size of a legal staff you need to keep current with all the regulations from all the different regulatory bodies.

    Big government likes big business because it is so easy to extract money from them in so many ways.

    but am I really that narrowly self-centered? or do I vote against my own economic self-interest anyway because other things matter to me more?
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  8. #168
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    between Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    8,525

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Imagine a Sane Donald Trump

    What if there had been a Sane Donald Trump?

    Oh my God, Sane Trump would have won in a landslide....He would be able to hear and act on good advice. He would explain his positions with clarity and depth, not with the impatient half-grasping of a notion that marks real Donald Trump’s public persona.

    Sane Donald Trump would have given an anxious country more ease, not more anxiety.

    .....

    Sane Donald Trump would have known of America’s hidden fractures, and would have insisted that a healthy moderate-populist movement cannot begin as or devolve into a nationalist, identity-politics movement. Those who look down on other groups, races or religions can start their own party. He, the famous brander, would even offer them a name: the Idiot Party.

    ....

    Sane Donald Trump for president. Too bad he doesn’t exist.

    For of all sad words of tongue or pen,
    The saddest are these: "It might have been!"
    -- John Greenleaf Whittier
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  9. #169
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    between Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    8,525

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    The Crook versus the Monster, by Scott Adams.

    Thanks to timely assists from Wikileaks, Trump has successfully framed Hillary clinton as a crooked politician. Meanwhile, Clinton has successfully framed Trump as a dangerous monster. If the mainstream polls are accurate, voters prefer the crook to the monster. That makes sense because a crook might steal your wallet but the monster could kill you. As of today, Clinton has the superior persuasion strategy. Crook beats monster.
    .....
    The biggest illusion this election is that we think the people on the other side can’t see the warts on their own candidate. But I think they do. Clinton supporters know she is crooked, but I think they assume it is a normal degree of crookedness for an American politician. Americans assume that even the “good” politicians are trading favors and breaking every rule that is inconvenient to them. I’ve never heard a Clinton supporter defend Clinton as being pure and honest. Her supporters like her despite her crookedness.

    Likewise, Trump supporters know what they are getting. They know he’s offensive. They know he’s under-informed on policies. They know he pays as little in taxes as possible. They know he uses bankruptcy laws when needed. They know he ignores facts that are inconvenient to his message. They just don’t care. They want to push the monster into Washington D.C., close the door, and let him break everything that needs to be broken. Demolition is usually the first step of building something new. And Trump also knows how to build things when he isn’t in monster mode.
    ....
    Clinton’s persuaders have taken advantage of the public’s faulty pattern recognition to build an illusion about Trump that he is a horrible monster who hates people because of their genitalia, their skin pigmentation, and their sexual preferences. I don’t believe Trump holds any of those views in 2016. But there is plenty of confirmation bias to make us think he does, thanks to Team Clinton’s persuasion efforts.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  10. #170
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    between Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    8,525

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Income inequality may have been a huge factor in this Presidential election, in an unexpected way....

    an acute crisis has been rolling through working-class America. Neither the conventional left nor the conventional right has fully grasped it.

    For decades, progressives have emphasized the “income gap” separating rich and poor. Their cries have only grown louder since the financial crisis. They contended that income inequality would ignite a new class struggle, causing unprecedented political turmoil.

    This was half right. There is indeed a gap in this country, and it has now led to a political revolution, a significant realignment in American politics. But the relevant gap wasn’t income. It was dignity.

    Too many Americans have lost pride in themselves. We sense dignity by creating value with our lives, through families, communities, and especially work. That is why American leaders so frequently talk about dignity in the context of labor. As Martin Luther King Jr. taught, “All labor that uplifts humanity has dignity and importance and should be undertaken with painstaking excellence.” Conversely, nothing destroys dignity more than idleness and a sense of superfluousness—the feeling that one is simply not needed.

    That is the circumstance in which millions of Americans find themselves today.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  11. #171
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Back down in Uptown
    Posts
    11,640

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Anyway,

    our company sells products and services to the ultra-affluent. The past eight years have been perhaps the best time in US history (except maybe the 1880s or so) to be super-wealthy. No matter what you think of the Administration's intentions, the net result has been a real boom for the mega-rich. Clinton looks extremely likely to continue policies that would favor them, and based on fund-raising records, they also think she would be really good for them. So if I want the super-rich to keep getting richer, I should vote for Clinton. Our company will continue to do well and so I will be okay even if minority children will continue to be shafted and even if my own children won't have anywhere near the opportunities to reach their full potential that a growing, vibrant, entrepreneur-driven economy would provide.

    big business likes big government because it restricts competition; the barriers to entry for new firms are very steep given the size of a legal staff you need to keep current with all the regulations from all the different regulatory bodies.

    Big government likes big business because it is so easy to extract money from them in so many ways.

    but am I really that narrowly self-centered? or do I vote against my own economic self-interest anyway because other things matter to me more?
    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Income inequality may have been a huge factor in this Presidential election, in an unexpected way....
    Absolutely. Dignity is always tied to wealth or a lack thereof.

    The problem is in contrast to your previous post; disparity doesn't have anything to do with the administration or Republican congress. By that I mean, the government had something to do with the market crash...but has zero to do with the widening wealth disparity.

    The wealth disparity comes from world developments (labor advancement) beyond our control...and the US' comparative advantages. The world has become a better 'value' source of labor than has the US. The US is no longer just a great source for mining or simple manufacturing. Its extended to simple services and more complex manufacturing. And this is understandable as the US is just 5% of the world population. When we excel, it will be in new technologies, content and complex services. The world desperately needs these and yet these areas where the US can really do no wrong are highly skilled and well compensated.

    Now trade barriers and other types of subsidies for industries where the US is not competitive...helps stem that tide. But the current cost is real and the potential future cost is high. These uncompetitive industries are both unprofitable (we don't have the same skilled, cheap labor as emerging countries) and will harm our ability to lead in industries we can and should own.

    For those of us watching, this has been coming for a long time and the disparity will continue to grow. The best solution is to do our best to grease the skids to get those who are struggling into jobs where there are real needs. Although it will be impossible to stop disparity without also stopping the country's growth, education, training and jobs programs is government that can help slow it.
    Last edited by 5mn_Major; 11-10-2016 at 08:04 AM.
    Go Gophers!

  12. #172

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Secret Lair
    Posts
    53,360

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Income inequality may have been a huge factor in this Presidential election, in an unexpected way....
    The interesting thing is the white (formerly) working class is responding to their loss of work and dignity the same way the inner city blacks did -- turn to drugs, despair, insularity, and anger.

    But when blacks did that they were called shiftless and thugs.

    When whites do that they're celebrated as the moral fiber of America's backbone, finally striking back.
    2016 USCHO POSER OF THE YEAR

    "The strength and power of despotism consists wholly in the fear of resistance." -- Thomas Paine

    Cornell University
    NCAA Champion 1967, 1970
    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
    Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014

  13. #173
    I'm the Problem ScoobyDoo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    The 9th Circle
    Posts
    63,583

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    The interesting thing is the white (formerly) working class is responding to their loss of work and dignity the same way the inner city blacks did -- turn to drugs, despair, insularity, and anger.

    But when blacks did that they were called shiftless and thugs.

    When whites do that they're celebrated as the moral fiber of America's backbone, finally striking back.
    Never thought of that. I think you're right.
    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

    Glass at 0%: Another First Round Exit.

  14. #174
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Posts
    5,888

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post

    When whites do that they're celebrated as the moral fiber of America's backbone, finally striking back.
    They were? All I heard was they're a bunch of racist, sexist, xenophobic bigots engaging in a "whitelash".

    Hmm, must have been watching a different channel.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  15. #175

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Location
    Secret Lair
    Posts
    53,360

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    They were? All I heard was they're a bunch of racist, sexist, xenophobic bigots engaging in a "whitelash".

    Hmm, must have been watching a different channel.
    This is the LPT. Save the snark for all the other ones please.
    2016 USCHO POSER OF THE YEAR

    "The strength and power of despotism consists wholly in the fear of resistance." -- Thomas Paine

    Cornell University
    NCAA Champion 1967, 1970
    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
    Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014

  16. #176
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Aug 1999
    Posts
    5,888

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    This is the LPT. Save the snark for all the other ones please.
    You're right. I apologize. Wasn't paying attention to the thread titles.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

  17. #177
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    between Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    8,525

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Absolutely. Dignity is always tied to wealth or a lack thereof.

    [income] disparity doesn't have anything to do with the administration or Republican congress. By that I mean, the government had something to do with the market crash...but has zero to do with the widening wealth disparity.
    Must respectfully disagree, on two counts:

    Most of our elementary schools and secondary schools are run by local government, and they are doing a terrible job providing children with a 20th century education, let alone a 21st century one. Federal programs are focused primarily on college but in today's economy a college degree is not worth very much compared to prior generations, 4-year residential college is no longer an appropriate educational avenue for people who need technological skills and trade skills. The federal government should not be involved in financing college education; or it should at least de-emphasize college relative to technical schools and trade schools.

    There are so many regulations from so many different regulatory bodies in place that it really dampens employment opportunities. Just imagine if there were one central portal through which business owners could conduct all their government business, instead of having to deal separately with each individual regulator. There is an absurd level of compliance barriers to deal with and an enormous number of regulatory edicts to sift through.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  18. #178
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Back down in Uptown
    Posts
    11,640

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Must respectfully disagree, on two counts:

    Most of our elementary schools and secondary schools are run by local government, and they are doing a terrible job providing children with a 20th century education, let alone a 21st century one. Federal programs are focused primarily on college but in today's economy a college degree is not worth very much compared to prior generations, 4-year residential college is no longer an appropriate educational avenue for people who need technological skills and trade skills. The federal government should not be involved in financing college education; or it should at least de-emphasize college relative to technical schools and trade schools.

    There are so many regulations from so many different regulatory bodies in place that it really dampens employment opportunities. Just imagine if there were one central portal through which business owners could conduct all their government business, instead of having to deal separately with each individual regulator. There is an absurd level of compliance barriers to deal with and an enormous number of regulatory edicts to sift through.
    I'll take that on.

    First, Elementary/Secondary in contrast to higher education is not stellar compared to world standards. Its maybe average, maybe less than average. But that's not got much to do with government. Compare us to say Sweden or Japan. These are financed by government...so its not indictment on govt as a whole. But the difference is that these best countries are primarily homogenous populations and where they aren't (such as France's Muslim population), they just don't educate them. Remember these countries are more socialist and so wealth disparity is much less...there are few immigrants, everyone speaks the local language...and population growth is minimal. The role of education is quite easy. In the US, we have changing demo's, we have growth/population movements and a very diverse ethnic/cultural populous. I would be stunned if we could keep up with these places. Could we go fully private? Sure and it might work out quite well. For 60% of the population. Just as with healthcare, taking care of the last 40% is expensive and private firms just walk away.

    Second, we have the best higher education in the world. Why would you tamper with that? We are flooded by international students from all around the world. Believe me, few American students go to Sweden for college (nor would they want to). In fact the US absolutely dominates every single facet of innovation, technology and business management in contrast to any other country. Any. So frankly, I'm not a big fan of free higher education. Too many risks to what is a stellar product.

    Lastly, regulations. Try starting up a company or managing one in any other country in the world. Believe me our regulations are quite modest. Could they be lower? Perhaps. But this is not why companies thrive or fail.
    Go Gophers!

  19. #179
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    between Scylla and Charybdis
    Posts
    8,525

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Elementary/Secondary in contrast to higher education is not stellar compared to world standards. Its maybe average, maybe less than average. But that's not got much to do with government.
    What?? do you pay property taxes?? what do you think property tax revenues pay for?? Every town in the country has a government-run public school! Are you trying to tell us that the school board is not part of local government???


    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Second, we have the best higher education in the world. Why would you tamper with that?
    I wouldn't "tamper" with it; I'd merely shift how it is paid for, and I'd also encourage many people to explore alternatives to college. With a technical background and on-the-job training, there are quite a few people who would be better off following that career track than going to a 4-year residential college.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Lastly, regulations. Try starting up a company or managing one in any other country in the world. Believe me our regulations are quite modest. Could they be lower? Perhaps. But this is not why companies thrive or fail.
    Apparently you have never run a business....go into your break room and look at the mandatory posters on the wall and count the number of agencies that require posted regulations. We have two laminated posters, each 3' x 2'. The federal one has 6 different agencies on it, and the state one has 4. and that is only regarding employee relations; behind the scenes there are several more for each entity. and you have local regulations as well.

    Compliance costs are significant. We have three full-time employees whose only job is to track compliance with various government regulations and multiple government agencies, and we also outsource payroll to another company whose job it is to comply with even more regulations. it is very difficult for a company with five or ten employees to manage all that administrative overhead.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

  20. #180
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Back down in Uptown
    Posts
    11,640

    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    What?? do you pay property taxes?? what do you think property tax revenues pay for?? Every town in the country has a government-run public school! Are you trying to tell us that the school board is not part of local government???
    The US is mediocre only in relative terms. Sweden has white Caucasians that speak Swedish and whose parents earn somewhere between $50k and $150k. Sweden does not balance tough inner city neighborhoods with multi ethic districts including 3+ languages/cultures with...Alabama.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    I wouldn't "tamper" with it; I'd merely shift how it is paid for, and I'd also encourage many people to explore alternatives to college. With a technical background and on-the-job training, there are quite a few people who would be better off following that career track than going to a 4-year residential college.
    Not sure what that means. But agree 100% on encouraging alternative educations such as technical.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Apparently you have never run a business....go into your break room and look at the mandatory posters on the wall and count the number of agencies that require posted regulations. We have two laminated posters, each 3' x 2'. The federal one has 6 different agencies on it, and the state one has 4. and that is only regarding employee relations; behind the scenes there are several more for each entity. and you have local regulations as well.

    Compliance costs are significant. We have three full-time employees whose only job is to track compliance with various government regulations and multiple government agencies, and we also outsource payroll to another company whose job it is to comply with even more regulations. it is very difficult for a company with five or ten employees to manage all that administrative overhead.
    I haven't owned a business...but I've consulted for top executives of no less than 50 companies...a dozen of which were F500. Regulation was not overwhelming. Go to Germany, Japan, Russia, China...you'll learn what regulation really is. What industry are you in?
    Go Gophers!

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •