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An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

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  • #76
    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

    Addendum to post # 74:

    I recall something from a "history of the world" class about Egypt in its earliest days. The Nile would flood every year, and the silt from the flood waters would settle on either bank, to provide fertile soil for farming. To control the spread of the flood, everyone had to build dikes on their land: if even one person failed, the entire purpose would be thwarted. Of course there was a similar problem of getting everyone to comply.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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    • #77
      Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

      Sorry that I am posting a link to a link here....

      http://commonknowledge.dukejournals....3/340.full.pdf cites Alasdair MacIntyre, as quoted in Constantine Sandis, “Torn Away from Sureness,” TLS, August 15, 2008, 23 as source

      “When offered a choice between two politically intolerable alternatives,” according to Alasdair MacIntyre, it is important to choose neither. And when that choice is presented in rival arguments and debates that exclude from public consideration any other set of possibilities, it becomes a duty to withdraw from those arguments and debates, so as to resist the imposition of this false choice by those who have arrogated to themselves the power of framing the alternatives."
      Interesting, if you find both DJT and HRC morally repugnant, he asserts that it is your duty to vote for neither. As a corollary, it seems that a third-party vote is not fruitless nor pointless in this situation, it is a way of making yourself heard that "neither" is your choice, while not voting at all says "leave the status quo alone."

      So, if we follow this line of moral reasoning, many of us have a moral duty to vote either for Stein or Johnson.

      It is hard for me to find a flaw in this line of reasoning, given the premises, yet I also feel a bit uncomfortable about it. Though Hippocrates words, "first, do no harm" also come to mind.
      "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

      "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

      "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

      "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

      Comment


      • #78
        Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

        Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
        Sorry that I am posting a link to a link here....

        http://commonknowledge.dukejournals....3/340.full.pdf cites Alasdair MacIntyre, as quoted in Constantine Sandis, “Torn Away from Sureness,” TLS, August 15, 2008, 23 as source



        Interesting, if you find both DJT and HRC morally repugnant, he asserts that it is your duty to vote for neither. As a corollary, it seems that a third-party vote is not fruitless nor pointless in this situation, it is a way of making yourself heard that "neither" is your choice, while not voting at all says "leave the status quo alone."

        So, if we follow this line of moral reasoning, many of us have a moral duty to vote either for Stein or Johnson.

        It is hard for me to find a flaw in this line of reasoning, given the premises, yet I also feel a bit uncomfortable about it. Though Hippocrates words, "first, do no harm" also come to mind.
        I may just write in Bill'n'Opus in that case. I am serious. It is voting without voting, using the above reasonjng, which on the surface seems sound
        Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
        Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

          Just a quick shout out to FF's citation of Alasdair MacIntyre, who is on my Rushmore of living philosophers. Reading him puts me in mind of Juliet's quote:

          "My bounty is as boundless as the sea,
          My love as deep; the more I give to thee,
          The more I have, for both are infinite." -- Romeo and Juliet, II.ii 140-142
          Last edited by Kepler; 08-04-2016, 12:18 PM.
          Cornell University
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          • #80
            Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

            Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
            I may just write in Bill'n'Opus in that case. I am serious. It is voting without voting, using the above reasoning, which on the surface seems sound
            Two other related items of note:

            In some states, once your party receive over x% of the vote in one election, you qualify for state matching funds in the next election, which in turn helps the third-party candidate's voice reach even more people next time.



            This year, if I recall correctly, if Gary Johnson (used for an example only because he is polling higher than Stein) gets above 15% in the polls, then he qualifies for the Presidential debates.

            While on one hand, Trump v Clinton would be like a UFC steel cage death match, having Johnson (as an example) also up there as a contrast between both of them could be really, really revealing to a much wider audience.
            "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

            "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

            "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

            "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

              Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
              Four incremental pieces of information that we need to include as part of a controlled scientific experiment.

              1) a tax on yacht value over $30,000 on yachts is not the same as a tax on auto value over $30,000, since most yachts cost far more than luxury autos ("what is the average purchase price of yacht in 1991 vs luxury car?")

              2) It is relatively easy to go to another country to buy a yacht and sail it here. It is not nearly so easy to go overseas to buy a car and then ship it here. ("how much does it cost to ship a car from Europe vs sail a yacht from Europe?")

              3) Most US yacht builders nearly went out of business in the early 1990s; automakers, not so much. (former was cited in NY Times article).

              4) what proportion of US automaker sales were affected by tax compared to what proportion of US yachtmaker sales were affected by the tax (how much did US Automakers also sell overseas vs how much did US yachtmakers sell overseas?)

              It was never presented as "all or none" but as "relative proportion." The tax impacted yachts far more heavily than cars on a relative basis because the amount of the purchase price subject to tax on the yachts was much higher than the amount of the purchase price subject to tax on the cars. (e.g, if average yacht is $100,000 and average luxury car is $50,000, then the former has a tax 3.5 times greater than the latter; not quite apples to apples when parsing out the effect of the tax relative to the effect of the recession).
              Purchasing a car overseas and shipping it back to the US is tricky business, too. You have to be able to bring the car up to safety and emissions codes of the United States if you're intent on using it on our roads. So there's a limiting effect on the automobile market that likely does not exist in the yacht market. At some point during the 80s, US soldiers would buy expensive cars overseas and ship them here for relatively cheap prices. At the time, the US did not have restrictions on individuals importing cars the way we do now. My brother was stationed in Germany at the time of the change, and a lot of his friends on base were doing what they could to buy a car and ship it home before the new restrictions went into place.
              "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

              "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

              "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

              Comment


              • #82
                Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

                ok...let's carry this forward

                Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                Purchasing a car overseas and shipping it back to the US is tricky business, too. You have to be able to bring the car up to safety and emissions codes of the United States if you're intent on using it on our roads. So there's a limiting effect on the automobile market that likely does not exist in the yacht market. At some point during the 80s, US soldiers would buy expensive cars overseas and ship them here for relatively cheap prices. At the time, the US did not have restrictions on individuals importing cars the way we do now. My brother was stationed in Germany at the time of the change, and a lot of his friends on base were doing what they could to buy a car and ship it home before the new restrictions went into place.
                So even if your/FF's assertion is that there is a difference in the luxury yacht and auto markets is correct, there is no evidence that yacht sales declines were caused by the luxury tax and not the recession. That's why you can't look at that market in isolation.

                There was massive growth in the luxury car market once it was out of the recession. And that shouldn't occur if the luxury tax was crushing it.
                Go Gophers!

                Comment


                • #83
                  Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                  Purchasing a car overseas and shipping it back to the US is tricky business, too. You have to be able to bring the car up to safety and emissions codes of the United States if you're intent on using it on our roads. So there's a limiting effect on the automobile market that likely does not exist in the yacht market. At some point during the 80s, US soldiers would buy expensive cars overseas and ship them here for relatively cheap prices. At the time, the US did not have restrictions on individuals importing cars the way we do now. My brother was stationed in Germany at the time of the change, and a lot of his friends on base were doing what they could to buy a car and ship it home before the new restrictions went into place.
                  Most European car companies have programs where you buy a car with US emissions, take delivery in Europe, drive it for a week or two with dealer plates (hello, Autobahn!), and then import it to the US as a "used" car. The difference in import taxes is slightly more than enough to pay for the trip to Europe, so...free European vacation!
                  If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

                    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                    Sorry that I am posting a link to a link here....

                    http://commonknowledge.dukejournals....3/340.full.pdf cites Alasdair MacIntyre, as quoted in Constantine Sandis, “Torn Away from Sureness,” TLS, August 15, 2008, 23 as source



                    Interesting, if you find both DJT and HRC morally repugnant, he asserts that it is your duty to vote for neither. As a corollary, it seems that a third-party vote is not fruitless nor pointless in this situation, it is a way of making yourself heard that "neither" is your choice, while not voting at all says "leave the status quo alone."

                    So, if we follow this line of moral reasoning, many of us have a moral duty to vote either for Stein or Johnson.

                    It is hard for me to find a flaw in this line of reasoning, given the premises, yet I also feel a bit uncomfortable about it. Though Hippocrates words, "first, do no harm" also come to mind.
                    That assumes that Stein and Johnson are actually better picks.

                    Which I doubt is true for many who are upset with Clinton and Trump.

                    The key part of any election is to do your homework, and not just assume that your "moral" beliefs are the only think you vote on. Democracy takes work by the people.

                    Comment


                    • #85
                      Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

                      Did Hillary Clinton suffer a brain injury which is being hidden from the public?

                      This blog post actually claims to have video evidence from television interviews...which you can watch for yourself from that site.

                      http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/08...coughing-fits/
                      "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                      "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                      "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                      "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

                        Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                        Did Hillary Clinton suffer a brain injury which is being hidden from the public?

                        This blog post actually claims to have video evidence from television interviews...which you can watch for yourself from that site.

                        http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/08...coughing-fits/
                        Doesn't this belong in the conspiracy thread?

                        Comment


                        • #87
                          Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                          Did Hillary Clinton suffer a brain injury which is being hidden from the public?

                          This blog post actually claims to have video evidence from television interviews...which you can watch for yourself from that site.

                          http://www.dangerandplay.com/2016/08...coughing-fits/
                          Can we see his medical credentials please? Until then, near as I can discern, he's a hardcore conservative-for-pay who wrote a book on how to be a sociopath (imagine that).

                          No soup for you! Next!

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

                            Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                            Doesn't this belong in the conspiracy thread?
                            No kidding. With all the shooting events in the last couple of years, the SS did their job. Protect your charge. I'd be a little freaked out if some protester did their thing when I was speaking. File this under: this is a non-issue/event.
                            Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
                            Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

                              Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                              Doesn't this belong in the conspiracy thread?
                              So Dr. Drew is a member of the conspiracy, eh?

                              Appearing on KABC’s McIntyre in the Morning, the hosts of the show were expecting Dr. Drew, known as “America’s most trusted physician,” to debunk claims that Hillary is having significant health problems, but Pinsky instead dropped several bombshells.

                              Pinsky said he and his colleague Dr. Robert Huizenga had already analyzed what medical records on Hillary had been released and were “gravely concerned….not just about her health but her health care.”

                              Pinsky noted that after her fall, Hillary suffered from a “transverse sinus thrombosis,” an “exceedingly rare clot” that “virtually guarantees somebody has something wrong with their coagulation system.”

                              “What’s wrong with her coagulation system, has that been evaluated?” asked Dr. Drew, adding, that Hillary was being given “weird” medication that could be exacerbating her health problems.

                              “So the very medicine doctors are using may be causing this problem and they’re using an old fashioned medicine to treat it – what is going on with her health care?” asked Pinsky.

                              Pinsky said the situation was “bizarre,” adding that Hillary’s medical condition was “dangerous” and “concerning”.

                              Dr. Drew also highlighted when Hillary had to wear prism glasses after her fall, declaring, “that is brain damage, and so that’s affecting her balance….tell us a little more about that – that’s profound.”

                              Pinsky pointed out that the treatment for Hillary’s hypothyroidism – Armour Thyroid – was also “unconventional” and that it has “weird side-effects”.

                              According to RXList.com, those side-effects include “severe dizziness,” while WebMD lists another side-effect as “tiredness”.

                              Dr. Drew emphasized that the health care Hillary has been receiving is totally inadequate, commenting, “she’s receiving 1950s-level care by our evaluation.”

                              “You gotta wonder,” concluded Pinsky, noting that Hillary’s health care could make her physical capabilities a “concern” ahead of the presidential election.

                              I thought that the request for this thread was to have evidence-based information, not just opinions without adequate foundation.....
                              "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                              "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                              "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                              "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                              Comment


                              • #90
                                Re: An Experiment: A Literal Political Thread

                                You're citing Infowars and some random website no one has ever heard of before, and you expect people to take you seriously.

                                This is the exact type of shiat I was talking about before. Posts like your last two do not deserve to be taken seriously.

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