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  • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
    These are the very facts I (and others) relied upon back at the time of Ferguson to argue that notwithstanding the headlines and protests, the instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare.
    The problem with the statement that "instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare" is no one really knows this because no accurate statistics are compiled.

    The government can tell you how many shark attacks there are every year. They can tell you how many pigs there are on all the pig farms. They can certainly tell you how many law enforcement officers are killed in any year. But since there is no requirement for every agency out there (and there are 18,000 of them) no one can tell me if the number of people shot by the police is rare, extremely rare, common, or frequent. We don't know if this number is trending up or down.

    What we seem to know is anecdotally it appears that the number is more frequent now. That could be the prevalence of social media. It could be that its juicy news right now and much like CNN milking a plane crash for all it is worth for weeks on end, police shootings have the same potential. Or it could be because it happens more now.

    The Washington Post has reported that some independent researchers and academics have claimed the number of people killed by law enforcement each year to hover around as many as 1000 a year. Something that happens 1000 times a year is not extremely rare.

    On the other hand we DO know that fewer police officers decade by decade and generally year by year, are dying on the job. We also know that overall crime, and violent crime in particular, is going down, and those trends decade by decade have been fairly steady as well. It seems to me that the crime statistics should make both the public AND the police less fearful of being the victim of violence. I'd like to know if their responses have kept track. Are they shooting and killing fewer now than before? Until we demand some comprehensive accounting, all we will ever have to go on the highly suspect anecdotal evidence.

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    • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

      Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
      The Washington Post has reported that some independent researchers and academics have claimed the number of people killed by law enforcement each year to hover around as many as 1000 a year. Something that happens 1000 times a year is not extremely rare.
      You can't have it both ways. We can't claim that 4500 cops assaulted or wounded annually is a drop in the bucket compared with the 24 million or more in cop/public interactions, but then claim that 1000 instances of cops shooting someone isn't similarly rare.
      That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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      • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

        It's true not all cops are bad. Here's what happens to the good ones: http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/0...death-threats/

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        • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

          Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
          The problem with the statement that "instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare" is no one really knows this because no accurate statistics are compiled.

          The government can tell you how many shark attacks there are every year. They can tell you how many pigs there are on all the pig farms. They can certainly tell you how many law enforcement officers are killed in any year. But since there is no requirement for every agency out there (and there are 18,000 of them) no one can tell me if the number of people shot by the police is rare, extremely rare, common, or frequent. We don't know if this number is trending up or down.

          What we seem to know is anecdotally it appears that the number is more frequent now. That could be the prevalence of social media. It could be that its juicy news right now and much like CNN milking a plane crash for all it is worth for weeks on end, police shootings have the same potential. Or it could be because it happens more now.

          The Washington Post has reported that some independent researchers and academics have claimed the number of people killed by law enforcement each year to hover around as many as 1000 a year. Something that happens 1000 times a year is not extremely rare.

          On the other hand we DO know that fewer police officers decade by decade and generally year by year, are dying on the job. We also know that overall crime, and violent crime in particular, is going down, and those trends decade by decade have been fairly steady as well. It seems to me that the crime statistics should make both the public AND the police less fearful of being the victim of violence. I'd like to know if their responses have kept track. Are they shooting and killing fewer now than before? Until we demand some comprehensive accounting, all we will ever have to go on the highly suspect anecdotal evidence.
          We're up to 777 deaths this year according to http://www.killedbypolice.net/ which has been tracking since 2013, including state, age, gender, race, all where available. Injuries are not tracked. It could be more, it could be less, or it could even be the same. The biggest differences is that filming them is easier for people to do now, and perhaps because of all the cases as of late, people are paying more attention. In the past, the magic badge has been able to censor their activity, which is probably why they're now trying to arrest people that film them, because they know third party accountability will implicate them, even if they're internally investigated and cleared of any wrongdoing (which almost always happens).

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          • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

            Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
            You can't have it both ways. We can't claim that 4500 cops assaulted or wounded annually is a drop in the bucket compared with the 24 million or more in cop/public interactions, but then claim that 1000 instances of cops shooting someone isn't similarly rare.
            I am not trying to have it both ways and take a little offense at the insinuation. I have provided accurate statistics and reporting (and UNOFAN offered some similar numbers a few posts ago) about the numbers of law enforcement officers being assaulted or killed. I have noted proof that the very long term trend is that fewer and fewer are are killed. I also posted that without numbers that are accurately reported we simply don't know what the truth is about the numbers of people killed by the police. I'm not saying or posting 1 cop being killed on the job, or 10 or 50 or 100 or 1000 is a "drop in the bucket." 1 killed is unfortunate and a tragedy. 1000, or 10 or 1 citizen killed by a cop in a year is also unfortunate, and a tragedy, even if the cop had not reasonable alternative.

            What is law enforcement afraid of in these numbers that very few agencies report? If the numbers back up the cops claims of being so rare, lets get them out there so we can put to bed the idea they are out of control. If the numbers aren't so pretty, lets get those out there so society can have actual figures with which to figure out what is going wrong.

            Look, there are good cops out there who go to work every day with the only thing on their minds being "how can I help make my community a little safer and a little better." Sometimes those cops are faced with the awful choice of having to take someone's life. And sometimes those same cops suffer such guilt and PTSD following an event like this, they end up quitting. I'd think it would be very important to us all to make sure these kinds of things happen as infrequently as is humanly possible so we don't lose the good one, and families on both sides don't need to suffer and we keep the good cops on the job doing their good works.

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            • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

              Originally posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
              I am not trying to have it both ways and take a little offense at the insinuation. I have provided accurate statistics and reporting (and UNOFAN offered some similar numbers a few posts ago) about the numbers of law enforcement officers being assaulted or killed. I have noted proof that the very long term trend is that fewer and fewer are are killed. I also posted that without numbers that are accurately reported we simply don't know what the truth is about the numbers of people killed by the police. I'm not saying or posting 1 cop being killed on the job, or 10 or 50 or 100 or 1000 is a "drop in the bucket." 1 killed is unfortunate and a tragedy. 1000, or 10 or 1 citizen killed by a cop in a year is also unfortunate, and a tragedy, even if the cop had not reasonable alternative.

              What is law enforcement afraid of in these numbers that very few agencies report? If the numbers back up the cops claims of being so rare, lets get them out there so we can put to bed the idea they are out of control. If the numbers aren't so pretty, lets get those out there so society can have actual figures with which to figure out what is going wrong.

              Look, there are good cops out there who go to work every day with the only thing on their minds being "how can I help make my community a little safer and a little better." Sometimes those cops are faced with the awful choice of having to take someone's life. And sometimes those same cops suffer such guilt and PTSD following an event like this, they end up quitting. I'd think it would be very important to us all to make sure these kinds of things happen as infrequently as is humanly possible so we don't lose the good one, and families on both sides don't need to suffer and we keep the good cops on the job doing their good works.
              There's only three reasons that come to mind that they don't want to report it: One, the cost of compiling and reporting the statistics isn't worth it (unlikely given it takes one DB query and one e-mail but that's what they'll say because it's PC); two, they want to continue to get away with it (there's some merit giving they're falsely arresting people with cameras now); or three, they're trying to not look like terrorists, thereby invoking a potential civil war (could have some merit given your "good cop" argument).

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              • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                What I'd be curious about is the age/experience/background of LEO's who have (1) fired their weapon and (2) killed the person.

                The hypothesis is <35, <5 yrs, military background. The data will see if the guess was right or not.

                Using that data a police force can adjust training to make sure that the shooting is righteous.
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                • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                  Originally posted by joecct View Post
                  What I'd be curious about is the age/experience/background of LEO's who have (1) fired their weapon and (2) killed the person.

                  The hypothesis is <35, <5 yrs, military background. The data will see if the guess was right or not.

                  Using that data a police force can adjust training to make sure that the shooting is righteous.
                  All of this would be useful data. It's easy to see the logic behind what you're curious about and it would make some sense if you're correct. But we'll likely never know (or at least not know for a long time while activists try to force the compilation of this data).

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                  • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                    Well, I dislike posting this, because if it's true, then a couple of campus Barney Fifes have made my alma mater's administration look not so 'alma', and extremely stupid. Not to mention wrecking an innocent kid's life.

                    Warning - it's long, but worth a review.
                    Last edited by FadeToBlack&Gold; 09-08-2016, 06:45 PM.

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                    • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                      Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                      Well, I dislike posting this, because if it's true, then a couple of campus Barney Fifes have made my alma mater's administration look not so 'alma', and extremely stupid. Not to mention wrecking an innocent kid's life.

                      Warning - it's long, but worth a review.
                      ELI5 summary (Fade, feel free to correct me if I botched this...)

                      This was right after the big racism kerfuffle at Mizzou.

                      A couple kids are talking about the threats at Mizzou on YikYak (an anonymous location-based chat service.) Kid posts "Gonna shoot all the black people...a smile tomorrow ." Another kid sees it, screen grabs it, posts it to his Twitter, and retweets the Tech VP of Student Affairs. No response, so he doctors it to remove the "a smile tomorrow" part and retweets it to him again, along with Public Safety. University freaks out, activates the alert system, shuts down campus, etc.

                      University contacts the Houghton police, kid is arrested for felony domestic terrorism, later changed to misdemeanor disturbing the peace. Police contact YikYak with the (doctored) post, YikYak responds "Uhh, that post has been doctored, and what he actually said was not a threat." Police drop all charges. VP of Student Affairs finds out the charges are dropped, goes ballistic, and organizes a protest march on the courthouse. Tech continues to parade around "Look at us, we caught us a racist, we're so enlightened and PC, go us!"

                      Kid is found by Student Affairs board to have broken X rule, but not Y, Z, and A rules, and is suspended from the university, later reduced to probation. Kid appeals his suspension to the Dean. The Dean rules he DID break rules Y, Z, and A, overrules the suspension/probation, and expels him. If I understand correctly, she does not have the power to reinstate the charges he was found not guilty of, just to adjust the punishment.

                      Not a peep from the kid who turned in the doctored image. Meanwhile, another student files a FOIA request, and after some legwork at the MTU subreddit, finds that Tech knew about the undoctored post when they proceeded with the protest march/suspension/expulsion. Uh oh.
                      Last edited by Twitch Boy; 09-08-2016, 10:12 PM. Reason: think I got it all correct this time...what a mess
                      Michigan Tech Huskies Pep Band: There's No Use Trying To Talk. No Human Sound Can Stand Up To This. Loud Enough To Knock You Down.

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                      • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                        That is basically their side of the story, with the additional tidbits that they are alleging the kid who edited the original post and "alerted" the administration/campus safety is a former student (not enrolled at the time) who was known to criticize & troll the university prior to this event last year, and that all of this came not only in the wake of Mizzou, but also a recent Halloween embarrassment in which a handful of idiots dressed in blackface and paraded the Stars & Bars around. So they are saying that as part of the cover-up, the administration was desperate to spin this into a public witch hunt where they could show that the vast majority of the student body are inclusive and that racism is not tolerated.

                        The whole thing is a giant headache.

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                        • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                          Originally posted by Twitch Boy View Post
                          ELI5 summary (Fade, feel free to correct me if I botched this...)

                          This was right after the big racism kerfuffle at Mizzou.

                          A couple kids are talking about the threats at Mizzou on YikYak (an anonymous location-based chat service.) Kid posts "Gonna shoot all the black people...a smile tomorrow ." Another kid sees it, screen grabs it, doctors it to remove the "a smile tomorrow" part, posts it to his Twitter, and retweets the Tech VP of Student Affairs and Public Safety. Absent further context, university freaks out, activates the alert system, shuts down campus, etc.

                          University contacts the Houghton police, kid is arrested for felony domestic terrorism, later changed to misdemeanor disturbing the peace. Police contact YikYak with the post, YikYak responds "Uhh, that post has been doctored, and we won't release what he said, but it's not a threat." Police drop all charges. VP of Student Affairs finds out the charges are dropped, goes ballistic, and organizes a protest march on the courthouse. Tech continues to parade around "Look at us, we caught us a racist, we're so enlightened and PC, go us!"

                          Kid is found by Student Affairs board to have broken X rule, but not Y, Z, and A rules, and is suspended from the university. Kid appeals his suspension to the Dean. The Dean rules he DID break rules Y, Z, and A and ups the suspension to an expulsion. If I understand correctly, she does not have the power to do this, just to uphold or overturn the suspension.

                          Not a peep from the kid who turned in the doctored image. Meanwhile, another student files a FOIA request, and after some legwork at the MTU subreddit, finds that Tech had spoken with the police and had already known that the post was doctored when they proceeded with the protest march/suspension/expulsion. Uh oh.
                          That is what I gathered reading it...except that Grainger sent two screenshots...the undoctored one was ignored and then he took out the "A Smile" with the emoji which is what triggered everything. Then, they lied about how they got the information (they said they found it themselves) leaving out Grainger. When Yik Yak said that was bs they changed their story to they found it during an independent investigation at the same time they were alerted.

                          I hope they got good attorney's because he is going to be awarded a ton for this. Punitive damages for this will probably hit 7 figures because of lost wages and defamation of character alone. My guess is that will only be the beginning of their problems...

                          Even if it is only partially true...the second the Dean expelled him they were hanging themselves. That is doubling down.
                          Last edited by Handyman; 09-08-2016, 07:39 PM.
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                          • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                            There IS another way to take the original YikYak, which I unfortunately did at first read:

                            He's gonna shoot the black people, AND smile tomorrow. Not that he's going to smile at black people. Poor decision on this kid's part to begin with. Worse decisions in the aftermath by MTU.
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                            • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                              Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
                              There IS another way to take the original YikYak, which I unfortunately did at first read:

                              He's gonna shoot the black people, AND smile tomorrow. Not that he's going to smile at black people. Poor decision on this kid's part to begin with. Worse decisions in the aftermath by MTU.
                              Yes, I know. I'm sure a substantial part of the university's defense will be that they had a reasonable expectation of a threat to campus based on that interpretation. Clearly though, there is a lot that does not add up regarding the university's response following the initial investigation. At the very least, it looks like the university and the county sheriff did not perform any due diligence regarding Grainger's involvement in this, and it looks like the campus police are incompetent at best, likely guilty of falsifying reports/evidence at worst.
                              Last edited by FadeToBlack&Gold; 09-08-2016, 10:53 PM.

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                              • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                                Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
                                There IS another way to take the original YikYak, which I unfortunately did at first read:

                                He's gonna shoot the black people, AND smile tomorrow. Not that he's going to smile at black people. Poor decision on this kid's part to begin with. Worse decisions in the aftermath by MTU.
                                Except it doesnt say "AND" it says "A". You have to misread it to get that context because the two statements dont parallel. That explanation really doesnt hold much water and will not work in defense of the school.
                                "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
                                -aparch

                                "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
                                -INCH

                                Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
                                -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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