Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Who says we cops don't have a sense of humor?

Oh, we already know about it. Shoot someone, clear yourselves of wrongdoing, and then laugh about it at the bar.

[burd]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Oh, we already know about it. Shoot someone, clear yourselves of wrongdoing, and then laugh about it at the bar.

Spare us your cheap righteousness, flag. When is comes to living off made-up facts, you are the master.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Spare us your cheap righteousness, flag. When is comes to living off made-up facts, you are the master.

http://www.copblock.org wishes to refute your attacks.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

I've seen Copblock. It's basically Freerepublic, except it's for gorillas who like to vent their spleen at all things police/military. Otherwise, it's the same subhuman level of IQ and blind hate in the comments.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Breaking news: A Nikon is a weapon. http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/0...recording-man/

[joecct]

Breaking news: A Nikon is a weapon. http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/0...recording-man/

Somewhere/somehow/somewhen the police training has changed that cops are now in a live fire combat zone rather than a community.

[St. Clown]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

Somewhere/somehow/somewhen the police training has changed that cops are now in a live fire combat zone rather than a community.

It may be due to the fact that many police forces will hire war veterans over non-military applicants. I don't know if that's still the case, but it was for a while, 5-10 years ago. While our vets need good jobs once they come home, it might not be the best idea to put them into a role that may cause them to feel the perceived pressure of combat.

I'm not saying that all of these shootings are by police officers with combat experience, only that it became a practice for hiring a while ago. Perhaps this could be indicative of the 100,000 police office grant bill that President Clinton was able to get passed back in '94. We may have exceeded the threshold of quality officers in the streets as a result of that, one of those things that may be a net benefit, but now we're focusing on the downside of it as crime rates have continued to drop since then.

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

It may be due to the fact that many police forces will hire war veterans over non-military applicants. I don't know if that's still the case, but it was for a while, 5-10 years ago. While our vets need good jobs once they come home, it might not be the best idea to put them into a role that may cause them to feel the perceived pressure of combat.

I'm not saying that all of these shootings are by police officers with combat experience, only that it became a practice for hiring a while ago. Perhaps this could be indicative of the 100,000 police office grant bill that President Clinton was able to get passed back in '94. We may have exceeded the threshold of quality officers in the streets as a result of that, one of those things that may be a net benefit, but now we're focusing on the downside of it as crime rates have continued to drop since then.

This is a valid point, and I also submit the advancement of weapons/aggressiveness of criminals. No such thing as a normal traffic stop anymore. Sad state of affairs all around.

[unofan]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

No such thing as a normal traffic stop anymore.

This is up there with "the world is more dangerous today than ever" in things that are oft repeated but, in fact, not true.

The fact remains that the vast, vast majority of cops will never need to draw their firearm on duty over their entire careers, let alone fire it.

"According to FBI Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted reports, 62 officers were killed during traffic stops from 2003 to 2012. That does not include 34 others who died during and after vehicle pursuits. In 2012, 4,450 officers were wounded or assaulted in various manners during traffic stops." http://www.forcescience.org/nosuchthing.html

That may sound like a lot, but keep in mind there are roughly 24,000,000 traffic stops each year. So wounded or assaulted officers happen about .02% of the time, and a killing happens about .00004% of the time.

So yes, a certain number of traffic stops result in the death of the cop. But on the scale from "in person voter fraud" to "paying taxes" in terms of likelihood, it's only marginally higher than in person voter fraud. There are definitely routine traffic stops.

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

This is a valid point, and I also submit the advancement of weapons/aggressiveness of criminals. No such thing as a normal traffic stop anymore. Sad state of affairs all around.

Brent the comment "no such thing as a normal traffic stop anymore" is not backed up by the facts if what you mean (and I suspect you mean this exactly but my apologies if I am mistaken) is that officers are more likely now to be assaulted or killed intentionally during a traffic stop. Fewer and fewer police officers are killed during traffic stops now than in the past. This is a fact. And those that do are usually the victims of traffic accidents. I've posted in earlier incarnations of this thread links to articles/statistics that show that for that at least the last 4 decades, the decade by decade trend (and in most instances the year by year trend) is that fewer police officers are being killed or assaulted in the line of duty. Most officers who die during duty time are killed as the result of traffic accidents, and most of those are not accidents while pursuing suspected criminals. And for those that are killed in pursuit, the risk/reward statistics often do not back up most pursuit incidents. This belief about the total danger and by where that danger lays by far too many people prevents real change because we can't -- or won't -- see what's really happening.

Law enforcement personnel have always been taught to be extra wary during traffic stops, even before we militarized our law enforcement to a point beyond ridiculousness. I remember a friend who was first a city cop in Indiana and later an Indiana State Police officer showing me a list he got in the academy. It said something or other like "The ten mistakes every dead cop made during a traffic stop." This was more than 3 decades ago, when it WAS more dangerous. As the job has gotten safer the cops have responded with more force, more numbers, more and bigger guns, and a whole lot less patience and skill. One of my best friends was a public safety officer in Michigan and his entire goal was "deescalate deescalate deescalate" in every domestic dispute, every traffic stop, every encounter. This is NOT a skill that is emphasized at all in most law enforcement training in the last 15 years, nor is it the first arrow out of the quiver in most cases. Any resistance is met with overwhelming force, even if that resistance is often only verbalized. This is what they are taught. No wonder things are the way they are.

I've heard other people, including a current co-worker who was a corrections officer in two states for almost 20 years as well as a Marine Corps veteran, who said perhaps the hiring of too many military vets is an issue. I don't know. Law enforcement has always attracted a fair number of veterans and I doubt that alone is the issue. The issue is hiring people with the right emotional makeup, and training them properly. Neither of which is happening.

[WeAreNDHockey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

So wounded or assaulted officers happen about .02% of the time, and a killing happens about .00004% of the time.

So in other words, for every 5000 traffic stops someone is assaulted. I don't know if I worked 5000 flights during my time employed by United Airlines (actually I do know, and it was no where near that many), but I had one passenger commit battery against me, so did that make that job as dangerous as that of a law enforcement officer? That question is, of course, rhetorical. But the point I and others made still stands.

Will an average officer even make 5000 traffic stops in a career? I suppose one who works for a highway patrol agency, like the Ohio Highway patrol might? But most cops won't, I suspect. So by those numbers, most cops will probably go an entire career without being assaulted during a traffic stop. Which is a good thing. But we need to quit accepting falsely inflated risks as truth.

Why do we question so few assumptions about law enforcement? How much money did your community thrown at D.A.R.E programs before it started paying attention to the reams of evidence that showed it to be ineffective? The General Accounting Office found no significant difference in abuse by kids who received D.A.R.E training and those who do not, and the Surgeon General placed D.A.R.E. under the category of ineffective programs in 2001. Yet for years money was thrown at it. Only in the last few years have people taken a closer look and money that was once going to D.A.R.E. programs has been redirected.

This country spends a lot of money on law enforcement. There are something like 18,000 separate local, state tribal and federal agencies. And the money wasted on ineffective law enforcement is staggering. It doesn't keep us safe. It doesn't keep the cops safe. But we rarely question it. And those that do are shouted down.

[The Rube]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

The point I was trying to make (and maybe I should have been more general, instead of saying "traffic stop") is that I think any encounter a policeman has with a suspect, criminal, whatever term you want to use, is not as predictable today as it was 50 years ago. Yes, a HUGE majority of the time, no problems whatsoever. However, it seems to me that people who are encountered by police seem to be a little less polite overall than in the past. And if an encounter goes sideways, it REALLY goes sideways.

I am sure some of that is the ex-jarheads/grunts that become officers, some of it is the attitudes expressed by the citizen that aren't always polite, and some of it is a mixture.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

It may be due to the fact that many police forces will hire war veterans over non-military applicants. I don't know if that's still the case, but it was for a while, 5-10 years ago. While our vets need good jobs once they come home, it might not be the best idea to put them into a role that may cause them to feel the perceived pressure of combat.

I'm not saying that all of these shootings are by police officers with combat experience, only that it became a practice for hiring a while ago. Perhaps this could be indicative of the 100,000 police office grant bill that President Clinton was able to get passed back in '94. We may have exceeded the threshold of quality officers in the streets as a result of that, one of those things that may be a net benefit, but now we're focusing on the downside of it as crime rates have continued to drop since then.

I'm not sure it's necessarily that. As much as it's nice giving veterans an opportunity, I wouldn't be surprised if media had a part in this. Look at all the TV shows and films that show cops beating people up, conveniently skipping the parts that involve the Constitution and due process, and the like. How about video games, where you can put yourself in the action? Sure, they'll claim there are cut-scenes that could explain proper procedure, but when is the last time you watched a cut-scene that explains something instead of pressing the button to skip it? Also, if any of you have had to deal with or have witnessed bullies when younger, how many of those bullies, do you think, ended up applying to the academy? After all, they get paid to torment people!

[SJHovey]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

This is up there with "the world is more dangerous today than ever" in things that are oft repeated but, in fact, not true.

The fact remains that the vast, vast majority of cops will never need to draw their firearm on duty over their entire careers, let alone fire it.

"According to FBI Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted reports, 62 officers were killed during traffic stops from 2003 to 2012. That does not include 34 others who died during and after vehicle pursuits. In 2012, 4,450 officers were wounded or assaulted in various manners during traffic stops." http://www.forcescience.org/nosuchthing.html

That may sound like a lot, but keep in mind there are roughly 24,000,000 traffic stops each year. So wounded or assaulted officers happen about .02% of the time, and a killing happens about .00004% of the time.

So yes, a certain number of traffic stops result in the death of the cop. But on the scale from "in person voter fraud" to "paying taxes" in terms of likelihood, it's only marginally higher than in person voter fraud. There are definitely routine traffic stops.

These are the very facts I (and others) relied upon back at the time of Ferguson to argue that notwithstanding the headlines and protests, the instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare.

I agree. Cops tend to oversell the "danger" they face every day on the job, although I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same if I faced even the remotest possibility of getting shot on the job. But at the same time, while the danger faced by people of color is most certainly larger than that faced by whites, the danger faced by any person when confronted by a cop is similarly rare.

[FlagDUDE08]

Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

These are the very facts I (and others) relied upon back at the time of Ferguson to argue that notwithstanding the headlines and protests, the instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare.

I agree. Cops tend to oversell the "danger" they face every day on the job, although I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same if I faced even the remotest possibility of getting shot on the job. But at the same time, while the danger faced by people of color is most certainly larger than that faced by whites, the danger faced by any person when confronted by a cop is similarly rare.

The advances of technology have certainly brought more proof of Constitutional violations to light. It has also become a bit of a cat and mouse. Body cams have been introduced, although it seems they "malfunction" when an act of brutality happens. I'm sure what will be next is the "internal investigation". If injury or death is involved, the case should automatically be reviewed by a third party. I'd recommend using a jury-like system, and the accused is suspended until cleared by said jury (death is an automatic without pay; injury is at discretion with a "three strikes rule" in play). I'd almost go so far as to recommend random selection for prosecuting attorney, because using the District Attorney shows a clear conflict of interest, as the political jurisdiction is prosecuting itself.