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Thread: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    So wounded or assaulted officers happen about .02% of the time, and a killing happens about .00004% of the time.
    So in other words, for every 5000 traffic stops someone is assaulted. I don't know if I worked 5000 flights during my time employed by United Airlines (actually I do know, and it was no where near that many), but I had one passenger commit battery against me, so did that make that job as dangerous as that of a law enforcement officer? That question is, of course, rhetorical. But the point I and others made still stands.

    Will an average officer even make 5000 traffic stops in a career? I suppose one who works for a highway patrol agency, like the Ohio Highway patrol might? But most cops won't, I suspect. So by those numbers, most cops will probably go an entire career without being assaulted during a traffic stop. Which is a good thing. But we need to quit accepting falsely inflated risks as truth.

    Why do we question so few assumptions about law enforcement? How much money did your community thrown at D.A.R.E programs before it started paying attention to the reams of evidence that showed it to be ineffective? The General Accounting Office found no significant difference in abuse by kids who received D.A.R.E training and those who do not, and the Surgeon General placed D.A.R.E. under the category of ineffective programs in 2001. Yet for years money was thrown at it. Only in the last few years have people taken a closer look and money that was once going to D.A.R.E. programs has been redirected.

    This country spends a lot of money on law enforcement. There are something like 18,000 separate local, state tribal and federal agencies. And the money wasted on ineffective law enforcement is staggering. It doesn't keep us safe. It doesn't keep the cops safe. But we rarely question it. And those that do are shouted down.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    The point I was trying to make (and maybe I should have been more general, instead of saying "traffic stop") is that I think any encounter a policeman has with a suspect, criminal, whatever term you want to use, is not as predictable today as it was 50 years ago. Yes, a HUGE majority of the time, no problems whatsoever. However, it seems to me that people who are encountered by police seem to be a little less polite overall than in the past. And if an encounter goes sideways, it REALLY goes sideways.

    I am sure some of that is the ex-jarheads/grunts that become officers, some of it is the attitudes expressed by the citizen that aren't always polite, and some of it is a mixture.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    It may be due to the fact that many police forces will hire war veterans over non-military applicants. I don't know if that's still the case, but it was for a while, 5-10 years ago. While our vets need good jobs once they come home, it might not be the best idea to put them into a role that may cause them to feel the perceived pressure of combat.

    I'm not saying that all of these shootings are by police officers with combat experience, only that it became a practice for hiring a while ago. Perhaps this could be indicative of the 100,000 police office grant bill that President Clinton was able to get passed back in '94. We may have exceeded the threshold of quality officers in the streets as a result of that, one of those things that may be a net benefit, but now we're focusing on the downside of it as crime rates have continued to drop since then.
    I'm not sure it's necessarily that. As much as it's nice giving veterans an opportunity, I wouldn't be surprised if media had a part in this. Look at all the TV shows and films that show cops beating people up, conveniently skipping the parts that involve the Constitution and due process, and the like. How about video games, where you can put yourself in the action? Sure, they'll claim there are cut-scenes that could explain proper procedure, but when is the last time you watched a cut-scene that explains something instead of pressing the button to skip it? Also, if any of you have had to deal with or have witnessed bullies when younger, how many of those bullies, do you think, ended up applying to the academy? After all, they get paid to torment people!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
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    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    This is up there with "the world is more dangerous today than ever" in things that are oft repeated but, in fact, not true.

    The fact remains that the vast, vast majority of cops will never need to draw their firearm on duty over their entire careers, let alone fire it.

    "According to FBI Law Enforcement Officers Killed and Assaulted reports, 62 officers were killed during traffic stops from 2003 to 2012. That does not include 34 others who died during and after vehicle pursuits. In 2012, 4,450 officers were wounded or assaulted in various manners during traffic stops." http://www.forcescience.org/nosuchthing.html

    That may sound like a lot, but keep in mind there are roughly 24,000,000 traffic stops each year. So wounded or assaulted officers happen about .02% of the time, and a killing happens about .00004% of the time.

    So yes, a certain number of traffic stops result in the death of the cop. But on the scale from "in person voter fraud" to "paying taxes" in terms of likelihood, it's only marginally higher than in person voter fraud. There are definitely routine traffic stops.
    These are the very facts I (and others) relied upon back at the time of Ferguson to argue that notwithstanding the headlines and protests, the instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare.

    I agree. Cops tend to oversell the "danger" they face every day on the job, although I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same if I faced even the remotest possibility of getting shot on the job. But at the same time, while the danger faced by people of color is most certainly larger than that faced by whites, the danger faced by any person when confronted by a cop is similarly rare.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    These are the very facts I (and others) relied upon back at the time of Ferguson to argue that notwithstanding the headlines and protests, the instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare.

    I agree. Cops tend to oversell the "danger" they face every day on the job, although I'm not sure I wouldn't do the same if I faced even the remotest possibility of getting shot on the job. But at the same time, while the danger faced by people of color is most certainly larger than that faced by whites, the danger faced by any person when confronted by a cop is similarly rare.
    The advances of technology have certainly brought more proof of Constitutional violations to light. It has also become a bit of a cat and mouse. Body cams have been introduced, although it seems they "malfunction" when an act of brutality happens. I'm sure what will be next is the "internal investigation". If injury or death is involved, the case should automatically be reviewed by a third party. I'd recommend using a jury-like system, and the accused is suspended until cleared by said jury (death is an automatic without pay; injury is at discretion with a "three strikes rule" in play). I'd almost go so far as to recommend random selection for prosecuting attorney, because using the District Attorney shows a clear conflict of interest, as the political jurisdiction is prosecuting itself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
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    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    These are the very facts I (and others) relied upon back at the time of Ferguson to argue that notwithstanding the headlines and protests, the instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare.
    The problem with the statement that "instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare" is no one really knows this because no accurate statistics are compiled.

    The government can tell you how many shark attacks there are every year. They can tell you how many pigs there are on all the pig farms. They can certainly tell you how many law enforcement officers are killed in any year. But since there is no requirement for every agency out there (and there are 18,000 of them) no one can tell me if the number of people shot by the police is rare, extremely rare, common, or frequent. We don't know if this number is trending up or down.

    What we seem to know is anecdotally it appears that the number is more frequent now. That could be the prevalence of social media. It could be that its juicy news right now and much like CNN milking a plane crash for all it is worth for weeks on end, police shootings have the same potential. Or it could be because it happens more now.

    The Washington Post has reported that some independent researchers and academics have claimed the number of people killed by law enforcement each year to hover around as many as 1000 a year. Something that happens 1000 times a year is not extremely rare.

    On the other hand we DO know that fewer police officers decade by decade and generally year by year, are dying on the job. We also know that overall crime, and violent crime in particular, is going down, and those trends decade by decade have been fairly steady as well. It seems to me that the crime statistics should make both the public AND the police less fearful of being the victim of violence. I'd like to know if their responses have kept track. Are they shooting and killing fewer now than before? Until we demand some comprehensive accounting, all we will ever have to go on the highly suspect anecdotal evidence.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    The Washington Post has reported that some independent researchers and academics have claimed the number of people killed by law enforcement each year to hover around as many as 1000 a year. Something that happens 1000 times a year is not extremely rare.
    You can't have it both ways. We can't claim that 4500 cops assaulted or wounded annually is a drop in the bucket compared with the 24 million or more in cop/public interactions, but then claim that 1000 instances of cops shooting someone isn't similarly rare.
    That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    It's true not all cops are bad. Here's what happens to the good ones: http://countercurrentnews.com/2015/0...death-threats/
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
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    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    The problem with the statement that "instances where cops shoot or kill a suspect are extremely rare" is no one really knows this because no accurate statistics are compiled.

    The government can tell you how many shark attacks there are every year. They can tell you how many pigs there are on all the pig farms. They can certainly tell you how many law enforcement officers are killed in any year. But since there is no requirement for every agency out there (and there are 18,000 of them) no one can tell me if the number of people shot by the police is rare, extremely rare, common, or frequent. We don't know if this number is trending up or down.

    What we seem to know is anecdotally it appears that the number is more frequent now. That could be the prevalence of social media. It could be that its juicy news right now and much like CNN milking a plane crash for all it is worth for weeks on end, police shootings have the same potential. Or it could be because it happens more now.

    The Washington Post has reported that some independent researchers and academics have claimed the number of people killed by law enforcement each year to hover around as many as 1000 a year. Something that happens 1000 times a year is not extremely rare.

    On the other hand we DO know that fewer police officers decade by decade and generally year by year, are dying on the job. We also know that overall crime, and violent crime in particular, is going down, and those trends decade by decade have been fairly steady as well. It seems to me that the crime statistics should make both the public AND the police less fearful of being the victim of violence. I'd like to know if their responses have kept track. Are they shooting and killing fewer now than before? Until we demand some comprehensive accounting, all we will ever have to go on the highly suspect anecdotal evidence.
    We're up to 777 deaths this year according to http://www.killedbypolice.net/ which has been tracking since 2013, including state, age, gender, race, all where available. Injuries are not tracked. It could be more, it could be less, or it could even be the same. The biggest differences is that filming them is easier for people to do now, and perhaps because of all the cases as of late, people are paying more attention. In the past, the magic badge has been able to censor their activity, which is probably why they're now trying to arrest people that film them, because they know third party accountability will implicate them, even if they're internally investigated and cleared of any wrongdoing (which almost always happens).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
    Quote Originally Posted by French Rage View Post
    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
    Quote Originally Posted by jericho on rpitv's chat
    I never thought I would say this, but you are right.
    Quote Originally Posted by Handyman View Post
    And yet, even if Flaggy is complete tinfoil hat, every day it looks closer and closer to the truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by burd View Post
    So flaggy: you win.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by SJHovey View Post
    You can't have it both ways. We can't claim that 4500 cops assaulted or wounded annually is a drop in the bucket compared with the 24 million or more in cop/public interactions, but then claim that 1000 instances of cops shooting someone isn't similarly rare.
    I am not trying to have it both ways and take a little offense at the insinuation. I have provided accurate statistics and reporting (and UNOFAN offered some similar numbers a few posts ago) about the numbers of law enforcement officers being assaulted or killed. I have noted proof that the very long term trend is that fewer and fewer are are killed. I also posted that without numbers that are accurately reported we simply don't know what the truth is about the numbers of people killed by the police. I'm not saying or posting 1 cop being killed on the job, or 10 or 50 or 100 or 1000 is a "drop in the bucket." 1 killed is unfortunate and a tragedy. 1000, or 10 or 1 citizen killed by a cop in a year is also unfortunate, and a tragedy, even if the cop had not reasonable alternative.

    What is law enforcement afraid of in these numbers that very few agencies report? If the numbers back up the cops claims of being so rare, lets get them out there so we can put to bed the idea they are out of control. If the numbers aren't so pretty, lets get those out there so society can have actual figures with which to figure out what is going wrong.

    Look, there are good cops out there who go to work every day with the only thing on their minds being "how can I help make my community a little safer and a little better." Sometimes those cops are faced with the awful choice of having to take someone's life. And sometimes those same cops suffer such guilt and PTSD following an event like this, they end up quitting. I'd think it would be very important to us all to make sure these kinds of things happen as infrequently as is humanly possible so we don't lose the good one, and families on both sides don't need to suffer and we keep the good cops on the job doing their good works.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by WeAreNDHockey View Post
    I am not trying to have it both ways and take a little offense at the insinuation. I have provided accurate statistics and reporting (and UNOFAN offered some similar numbers a few posts ago) about the numbers of law enforcement officers being assaulted or killed. I have noted proof that the very long term trend is that fewer and fewer are are killed. I also posted that without numbers that are accurately reported we simply don't know what the truth is about the numbers of people killed by the police. I'm not saying or posting 1 cop being killed on the job, or 10 or 50 or 100 or 1000 is a "drop in the bucket." 1 killed is unfortunate and a tragedy. 1000, or 10 or 1 citizen killed by a cop in a year is also unfortunate, and a tragedy, even if the cop had not reasonable alternative.

    What is law enforcement afraid of in these numbers that very few agencies report? If the numbers back up the cops claims of being so rare, lets get them out there so we can put to bed the idea they are out of control. If the numbers aren't so pretty, lets get those out there so society can have actual figures with which to figure out what is going wrong.

    Look, there are good cops out there who go to work every day with the only thing on their minds being "how can I help make my community a little safer and a little better." Sometimes those cops are faced with the awful choice of having to take someone's life. And sometimes those same cops suffer such guilt and PTSD following an event like this, they end up quitting. I'd think it would be very important to us all to make sure these kinds of things happen as infrequently as is humanly possible so we don't lose the good one, and families on both sides don't need to suffer and we keep the good cops on the job doing their good works.
    There's only three reasons that come to mind that they don't want to report it: One, the cost of compiling and reporting the statistics isn't worth it (unlikely given it takes one DB query and one e-mail but that's what they'll say because it's PC); two, they want to continue to get away with it (there's some merit giving they're falsely arresting people with cameras now); or three, they're trying to not look like terrorists, thereby invoking a potential civil war (could have some merit given your "good cop" argument).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rover View Post
    I'm not happy about it either, but Flag is correct (cue the Twilight Zone music!).
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    Ahh crap I agree exactly with what FlagDude said.
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    So flaggy: you win.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    What I'd be curious about is the age/experience/background of LEO's who have (1) fired their weapon and (2) killed the person.

    The hypothesis is <35, <5 yrs, military background. The data will see if the guess was right or not.

    Using that data a police force can adjust training to make sure that the shooting is righteous.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    What I'd be curious about is the age/experience/background of LEO's who have (1) fired their weapon and (2) killed the person.

    The hypothesis is <35, <5 yrs, military background. The data will see if the guess was right or not.

    Using that data a police force can adjust training to make sure that the shooting is righteous.
    All of this would be useful data. It's easy to see the logic behind what you're curious about and it would make some sense if you're correct. But we'll likely never know (or at least not know for a long time while activists try to force the compilation of this data).

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Well, I dislike posting this, because if it's true, then a couple of campus Barney Fifes have made my alma mater's administration look not so 'alma', and extremely stupid. Not to mention wrecking an innocent kid's life.

    Warning - it's long, but worth a review.
    Last edited by FadeToBlack&Gold; 09-08-2016 at 07:45 PM.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
    Well, I dislike posting this, because if it's true, then a couple of campus Barney Fifes have made my alma mater's administration look not so 'alma', and extremely stupid. Not to mention wrecking an innocent kid's life.

    Warning - it's long, but worth a review.
    ELI5 summary (Fade, feel free to correct me if I botched this...)

    This was right after the big racism kerfuffle at Mizzou.

    A couple kids are talking about the threats at Mizzou on YikYak (an anonymous location-based chat service.) Kid posts "Gonna shoot all the black people...a smile tomorrow ." Another kid sees it, screen grabs it, posts it to his Twitter, and retweets the Tech VP of Student Affairs. No response, so he doctors it to remove the "a smile tomorrow" part and retweets it to him again, along with Public Safety. University freaks out, activates the alert system, shuts down campus, etc.

    University contacts the Houghton police, kid is arrested for felony domestic terrorism, later changed to misdemeanor disturbing the peace. Police contact YikYak with the (doctored) post, YikYak responds "Uhh, that post has been doctored, and what he actually said was not a threat." Police drop all charges. VP of Student Affairs finds out the charges are dropped, goes ballistic, and organizes a protest march on the courthouse. Tech continues to parade around "Look at us, we caught us a racist, we're so enlightened and PC, go us!"

    Kid is found by Student Affairs board to have broken X rule, but not Y, Z, and A rules, and is suspended from the university, later reduced to probation. Kid appeals his suspension to the Dean. The Dean rules he DID break rules Y, Z, and A, overrules the suspension/probation, and expels him. If I understand correctly, she does not have the power to reinstate the charges he was found not guilty of, just to adjust the punishment.

    Not a peep from the kid who turned in the doctored image. Meanwhile, another student files a FOIA request, and after some legwork at the MTU subreddit, finds that Tech knew about the undoctored post when they proceeded with the protest march/suspension/expulsion. Uh oh.
    Last edited by Twitch Boy; 09-08-2016 at 11:12 PM. Reason: think I got it all correct this time...what a mess
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    That is basically their side of the story, with the additional tidbits that they are alleging the kid who edited the original post and "alerted" the administration/campus safety is a former student (not enrolled at the time) who was known to criticize & troll the university prior to this event last year, and that all of this came not only in the wake of Mizzou, but also a recent Halloween embarrassment in which a handful of idiots dressed in blackface and paraded the Stars & Bars around. So they are saying that as part of the cover-up, the administration was desperate to spin this into a public witch hunt where they could show that the vast majority of the student body are inclusive and that racism is not tolerated.

    The whole thing is a giant headache.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by Twitch Boy View Post
    ELI5 summary (Fade, feel free to correct me if I botched this...)

    This was right after the big racism kerfuffle at Mizzou.

    A couple kids are talking about the threats at Mizzou on YikYak (an anonymous location-based chat service.) Kid posts "Gonna shoot all the black people...a smile tomorrow ." Another kid sees it, screen grabs it, doctors it to remove the "a smile tomorrow" part, posts it to his Twitter, and retweets the Tech VP of Student Affairs and Public Safety. Absent further context, university freaks out, activates the alert system, shuts down campus, etc.

    University contacts the Houghton police, kid is arrested for felony domestic terrorism, later changed to misdemeanor disturbing the peace. Police contact YikYak with the post, YikYak responds "Uhh, that post has been doctored, and we won't release what he said, but it's not a threat." Police drop all charges. VP of Student Affairs finds out the charges are dropped, goes ballistic, and organizes a protest march on the courthouse. Tech continues to parade around "Look at us, we caught us a racist, we're so enlightened and PC, go us!"

    Kid is found by Student Affairs board to have broken X rule, but not Y, Z, and A rules, and is suspended from the university. Kid appeals his suspension to the Dean. The Dean rules he DID break rules Y, Z, and A and ups the suspension to an expulsion. If I understand correctly, she does not have the power to do this, just to uphold or overturn the suspension.

    Not a peep from the kid who turned in the doctored image. Meanwhile, another student files a FOIA request, and after some legwork at the MTU subreddit, finds that Tech had spoken with the police and had already known that the post was doctored when they proceeded with the protest march/suspension/expulsion. Uh oh.
    That is what I gathered reading it...except that Grainger sent two screenshots...the undoctored one was ignored and then he took out the "A Smile" with the emoji which is what triggered everything. Then, they lied about how they got the information (they said they found it themselves) leaving out Grainger. When Yik Yak said that was bs they changed their story to they found it during an independent investigation at the same time they were alerted.

    I hope they got good attorney's because he is going to be awarded a ton for this. Punitive damages for this will probably hit 7 figures because of lost wages and defamation of character alone. My guess is that will only be the beginning of their problems...

    Even if it is only partially true...the second the Dean expelled him they were hanging themselves. That is doubling down.
    Last edited by Handyman; 09-08-2016 at 08:39 PM.
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  18. #118
    Anti-Semantic Brenthoven's Avatar
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    There IS another way to take the original YikYak, which I unfortunately did at first read:

    He's gonna shoot the black people, AND smile tomorrow. Not that he's going to smile at black people. Poor decision on this kid's part to begin with. Worse decisions in the aftermath by MTU.
    Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
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  19. #119
    DYKWIA? FadeToBlack&Gold's Avatar
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    There IS another way to take the original YikYak, which I unfortunately did at first read:

    He's gonna shoot the black people, AND smile tomorrow. Not that he's going to smile at black people. Poor decision on this kid's part to begin with. Worse decisions in the aftermath by MTU.
    Yes, I know. I'm sure a substantial part of the university's defense will be that they had a reasonable expectation of a threat to campus based on that interpretation. Clearly though, there is a lot that does not add up regarding the university's response following the initial investigation. At the very least, it looks like the university and the county sheriff did not perform any due diligence regarding Grainger's involvement in this, and it looks like the campus police are incompetent at best, likely guilty of falsifying reports/evidence at worst.
    Last edited by FadeToBlack&Gold; 09-08-2016 at 11:53 PM.
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  20. #120
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    There IS another way to take the original YikYak, which I unfortunately did at first read:

    He's gonna shoot the black people, AND smile tomorrow. Not that he's going to smile at black people. Poor decision on this kid's part to begin with. Worse decisions in the aftermath by MTU.
    Except it doesnt say "AND" it says "A". You have to misread it to get that context because the two statements dont parallel. That explanation really doesnt hold much water and will not work in defense of the school.
    "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
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    "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
    -INCH

    Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
    -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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