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Thread: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

  1. #961
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    They are trained to shoot at the torso because that is the biggest mass of a person's body, and will most likely stop the threat, since there is less chance of missing the shot. It's basic odds. If they were trained to kill (such as snipers) then they'd be going for head shots.
    Agreed. I have several friends in Minneapolis pd. These are not kill shot snipers

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
    Agreed. I have several friends in Minneapolis pd. These are not kill shot snipers
    To add to that, unless you are a sociopath, no matter how well you are trained, there is some level of anxiety. It could be very minimal, but there is a level. You are shooting at another human being (and also the fear that you will be harmed). A common misconception is that one shot should do it. That could be the case, but in that position, do you want to take that chance? You fire until you deem the threat to be neutralized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    To add to that, unless you are a sociopath, no matter how well you are trained, there is some level of anxiety. It could be very minimal, but there is a level. You are shooting at another human being (and also the fear that you will be harmed). A common misconception is that one shot should do it. That could be the case, but in that position, do you want to take that chance? You fire until you deem the threat to be neutralized.
    That being said, the dog stuff is disturbing. My MPLS pd friends ironically have staffordshire dogs, just like the ones shot. And their dogs are truly nanny dogs, babying their kids. I suspect my friends struggle with this shooting too.
    Edit- not a commentary on shooting humans, I don't ask them opinions on things like the philandro shooting for a reason.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
    That being said, the dog stuff is disturbing. My MPLS pd friends ironically have staffordshire dogs, just like the ones shot. And their dogs are truly nanny dogs, babying their kids. I suspect my friends struggle with this shooting too.
    I'm going to wait until everything comes out. On the surface....uh-oh.....but the dog owner didn't help herself by saying that the dogs were doing their job...that implies protecting the property/owner, which could constitute a threat to the "invaders" which in this case are police officers.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    They are trained to shoot at the torso because that is the biggest mass of a person's body, and will most likely stop the threat, since there is less chance of missing the shot. It's basic odds. If they were trained to kill (such as snipers) then they'd be going for head shots.
    yeah, but let's be honest. They're trained to shoot at an area where the likely result is going to be death. You can call it stopping the threat, if that makes you feel better, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's still a duck.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    yeah, but let's be honest. They're trained to shoot at an area where the likely result is going to be death. You can call it stopping the threat, if that makes you feel better, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's still a duck.
    You probably think that a cop can shoot the gun out of someone's hand.

    You shoot where you have the most likely chance to hit your target. Yes, that area happens to have vital organs. No, cops are not trained to hit those vital organs. They are trained to hit that large mass of area.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    What you're missing is that not all cops in every country are trained to do this. Like in Finland they shoot to maim and stop the suspect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    What you're missing is that not all cops in every country are trained to do this. Like in Finland they shoot to maim and stop the suspect.
    Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.
    I believe the time-honored cliches are never pull a weapon unless you intend to fire it and never fire a weapon at someone unless you intend to kill.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brenthoven View Post
    You probably think that a cop can shoot the gun out of someone's hand.

    You shoot where you have the most likely chance to hit your target. Yes, that area happens to have vital organs. No, cops are not trained to hit those vital organs. They are trained to hit that large mass of area.
    I'm saying it's doublespeak, nothing more. They say they're trained to "stop the threat" because it plays well to juries in the inevitable lawsuit and it probably gives them some personal absolution in the rare event they have to fire their weapon (I didn't intend to kill that person, I just wanted to stop him).

    But the fact remains that the way they stop the threat is almost inevitably by killing the person. Hell, I previously linked to a former FBI trainer's report on the Cleveland police shooting involving the 12 year old, and her words were even starker. Something along the lines of "the most effective way to stop a threat is to prevent oxygen from reaching the decision-making center" or something to that effect. So they aren't trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen through blood loss.

    To any lay person, that sounds a helluva lot like being trained to kill.
    Last edited by unofan; 07-12-2017 at 11:39 AM.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.
    Is it silly that they don't kill as many people as they do here?

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    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    I'm saying it's doublespeak, nothing more. They say they're trained to "stop the threat" because it plays well to juries in the inevitable lawsuit and it probably gives them some personal absolution in the rare event they have to fire their weapon (I didn't intend to kill that person, I just wanted to stop him).

    But the fact remains that the way they stop the threat is almost inevitably by killing the person. Hell, I previously linked to a former FBI trainer's report on the Cleveland police shooting involving the 12 year old, and her words were even starker. Something along the lines of "the most effective way to stop a threat is to prevent oxygen from reaching the decision-making center" or something to that effect. So they aren't trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen through blood loss.

    To any lay person, that sounds a helluva lot like being trained to kill.
    Found it:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...g_BjDms-VdWrxg

    The money line (sorry about the formatting, copying from a PDF on my phone): "Police officers are not trained to “shoot to kill.” Rather, they are trained to shoot to stop an imminent threat. The quickest, most efficient and practical way for a law enforcement officer to forcibly bring about a timely halt to threatening actions is to deprive the subject’s brain of the oxygen necessary to continue conscious action. Because oxygen is carried to the brain by blood, law enforcement officers are trained to aim for center mass where most of the blood-bearing organs are located."

    So they're not trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen, something that inherently results in death.

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by unofan View Post
    Found it:

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...g_BjDms-VdWrxg

    The money line (sorry about the formatting, copying from a PDF on my phone): "Police officers are not trained to “shoot to kill.” Rather, they are trained to shoot to stop an imminent threat. The quickest, most efficient and practical way for a law enforcement officer to forcibly bring about a timely halt to threatening actions is to deprive the subject’s brain of the oxygen necessary to continue conscious action. Because oxygen is carried to the brain by blood, law enforcement officers are trained to aim for center mass where most of the blood-bearing organs are located."

    So they're not trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen, something that inherently results in death.
    c.f.: Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't a murderer. He was a chef.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    c.f.: Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't a murderer. He was a chef.
    What was his favorite dish? Italian? Chinese? Thai?

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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    What was his favorite dish? Italian? Chinese? Thai?
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Oops.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    What oops? There was nothing "awkward" in his response to her questions, despite the spin by the Newsweak reporter.


    Stops like this happen thousands of times daily across the US and Canada.

    I'd run hundreds of plates through the computer during an 8 or 10 hour shift. Recovered I don't know how many stolen vehicles, arrested IDK how many people for warrants.

    It's called proactive policing.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveP View Post
    It's called proactive policing.
    Euphemisms are fun.

    Are you going to argue there's no DWB problem? Because 10% of the population would like a word with you.
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Euphemisms are fun.

    Are you going to argue there's no DWB problem? Because 10% of the population would like a word with you.
    I'm not going to argue, but this stop doesn't show any evidence of DWB. Oh, and in case you missed it at 2:11 into the video, the officer's partner is black!

    The tint on the windows would make it difficult to determine the race of the driver, especially around dusk as this appears to be. But what would I know about that?
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    Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

    Quote Originally Posted by trixR4kids View Post
    in Finland they shoot to maim and stop the suspect.
    Is this seriously real? I can't think of a worse policy than expecting a cop under fire to take careful aim at a moving ankle bone before defending himself. It just seems bizarre. Can you imagine how many more dead cops we'd have in the U.S. if we tried this?
    Is this another of those "but Finland has a homogeneous population so it works" things? I don't see how.
    okay, what I learned in my five minutes of research about socialist countries that don't have all those pesky "constitutional rights" is that most of the cops just carry tasers since the people aren't allowed to have guns. So I guess that explains that: "You'll feel safer here in this little padded box and we'll feed you twice a day..."
    Last edited by geezer; 07-13-2017 at 03:48 PM.
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