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Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

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  • Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
    They are trained to shoot at the torso because that is the biggest mass of a person's body, and will most likely stop the threat, since there is less chance of missing the shot. It's basic odds. If they were trained to kill (such as snipers) then they'd be going for head shots.
    Agreed. I have several friends in Minneapolis pd. These are not kill shot snipers

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    • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

      Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
      Agreed. I have several friends in Minneapolis pd. These are not kill shot snipers
      To add to that, unless you are a sociopath, no matter how well you are trained, there is some level of anxiety. It could be very minimal, but there is a level. You are shooting at another human being (and also the fear that you will be harmed). A common misconception is that one shot should do it. That could be the case, but in that position, do you want to take that chance? You fire until you deem the threat to be neutralized.
      Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
      Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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      • Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
        To add to that, unless you are a sociopath, no matter how well you are trained, there is some level of anxiety. It could be very minimal, but there is a level. You are shooting at another human being (and also the fear that you will be harmed). A common misconception is that one shot should do it. That could be the case, but in that position, do you want to take that chance? You fire until you deem the threat to be neutralized.
        That being said, the dog stuff is disturbing. My MPLS pd friends ironically have staffordshire dogs, just like the ones shot. And their dogs are truly nanny dogs, babying their kids. I suspect my friends struggle with this shooting too.
        Edit- not a commentary on shooting humans, I don't ask them opinions on things like the philandro shooting for a reason.

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        • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

          Originally posted by Deutsche Gopher Fan View Post
          That being said, the dog stuff is disturbing. My MPLS pd friends ironically have staffordshire dogs, just like the ones shot. And their dogs are truly nanny dogs, babying their kids. I suspect my friends struggle with this shooting too.
          I'm going to wait until everything comes out. On the surface....uh-oh.....but the dog owner didn't help herself by saying that the dogs were doing their job...that implies protecting the property/owner, which could constitute a threat to the "invaders" which in this case are police officers.
          Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
          Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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          • Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
            They are trained to shoot at the torso because that is the biggest mass of a person's body, and will most likely stop the threat, since there is less chance of missing the shot. It's basic odds. If they were trained to kill (such as snipers) then they'd be going for head shots.
            yeah, but let's be honest. They're trained to shoot at an area where the likely result is going to be death. You can call it stopping the threat, if that makes you feel better, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's still a duck.

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            • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

              Originally posted by unofan View Post
              yeah, but let's be honest. They're trained to shoot at an area where the likely result is going to be death. You can call it stopping the threat, if that makes you feel better, but if it looks like a duck and walks like a duck, it's still a duck.
              You probably think that a cop can shoot the gun out of someone's hand.

              You shoot where you have the most likely chance to hit your target. Yes, that area happens to have vital organs. No, cops are not trained to hit those vital organs. They are trained to hit that large mass of area.
              Never really developed a taste for tequila. Kind of hard to understand how you make a drink out of something that sharp, inhospitable. Now, bourbon is easy to understand.
              Tastes like a warm summer day. -Raylan Givens

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              • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                What you're missing is that not all cops in every country are trained to do this. Like in Finland they shoot to maim and stop the suspect.

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                • Originally posted by trixR4kids View Post
                  What you're missing is that not all cops in every country are trained to do this. Like in Finland they shoot to maim and stop the suspect.
                  Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.
                  CCT '77 & '78
                  4 kids
                  5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                  1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                  ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                  - Benjamin Franklin

                  Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                  I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                  • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                    Originally posted by joecct View Post
                    Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.
                    I believe the time-honored cliches are never pull a weapon unless you intend to fire it and never fire a weapon at someone unless you intend to kill.
                    Cornell University
                    National Champion 1967, 1970
                    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
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                    • Originally posted by Brenthoven View Post
                      You probably think that a cop can shoot the gun out of someone's hand.

                      You shoot where you have the most likely chance to hit your target. Yes, that area happens to have vital organs. No, cops are not trained to hit those vital organs. They are trained to hit that large mass of area.
                      I'm saying it's doublespeak, nothing more. They say they're trained to "stop the threat" because it plays well to juries in the inevitable lawsuit and it probably gives them some personal absolution in the rare event they have to fire their weapon (I didn't intend to kill that person, I just wanted to stop him).

                      But the fact remains that the way they stop the threat is almost inevitably by killing the person. Hell, I previously linked to a former FBI trainer's report on the Cleveland police shooting involving the 12 year old, and her words were even starker. Something along the lines of "the most effective way to stop a threat is to prevent oxygen from reaching the decision-making center" or something to that effect. So they aren't trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen through blood loss.

                      To any lay person, that sounds a helluva lot like being trained to kill.
                      Last edited by unofan; 07-12-2017, 11:39 AM.

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                      • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                        Originally posted by joecct View Post
                        Silly, IMO. If you draw your weapon, you're not contemplating a slap on the wrist. If you want to disable the suspect/perp/citizen, use a taser.
                        Is it silly that they don't kill as many people as they do here?

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                        • Originally posted by unofan View Post
                          I'm saying it's doublespeak, nothing more. They say they're trained to "stop the threat" because it plays well to juries in the inevitable lawsuit and it probably gives them some personal absolution in the rare event they have to fire their weapon (I didn't intend to kill that person, I just wanted to stop him).

                          But the fact remains that the way they stop the threat is almost inevitably by killing the person. Hell, I previously linked to a former FBI trainer's report on the Cleveland police shooting involving the 12 year old, and her words were even starker. Something along the lines of "the most effective way to stop a threat is to prevent oxygen from reaching the decision-making center" or something to that effect. So they aren't trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen through blood loss.

                          To any lay person, that sounds a helluva lot like being trained to kill.
                          Found it:

                          https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...g_BjDms-VdWrxg

                          The money line (sorry about the formatting, copying from a PDF on my phone): "Police officers are not trained to “shoot to kill.” Rather, they are trained to shoot to stop an imminent threat. The quickest, most efficient and practical way for a law enforcement officer to forcibly bring about a timely halt to threatening actions is to deprive the subject’s brain of the oxygen necessary to continue conscious action. Because oxygen is carried to the brain by blood, law enforcement officers are trained to aim for center mass where most of the blood-bearing organs are located."

                          So they're not trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen, something that inherently results in death.

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                          • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                            Originally posted by unofan View Post
                            Found it:

                            https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sour...g_BjDms-VdWrxg

                            The money line (sorry about the formatting, copying from a PDF on my phone): "Police officers are not trained to “shoot to kill.” Rather, they are trained to shoot to stop an imminent threat. The quickest, most efficient and practical way for a law enforcement officer to forcibly bring about a timely halt to threatening actions is to deprive the subject’s brain of the oxygen necessary to continue conscious action. Because oxygen is carried to the brain by blood, law enforcement officers are trained to aim for center mass where most of the blood-bearing organs are located."

                            So they're not trained to kill, they're just trained to deprive the brain of oxygen, something that inherently results in death.
                            c.f.: Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't a murderer. He was a chef.
                            Cornell University
                            National Champion 1967, 1970
                            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                            • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              c.f.: Jeffrey Dahmer wasn't a murderer. He was a chef.
                              What was his favorite dish? Italian? Chinese? Thai?
                              CCT '77 & '78
                              4 kids
                              5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                              1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                              ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                              - Benjamin Franklin

                              Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                              I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Cops 4: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

                                Originally posted by joecct View Post
                                What was his favorite dish? Italian? Chinese? Thai?
                                https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B0whodOIIAAqRXu.png:large
                                Cornell University
                                National Champion 1967, 1970
                                ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                                Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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