Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Yes, it's totally the woman's fault that you're staring at her. Heaven forbid she wants to wear something comfortable.

If you actually read what we are talking about you would know those clothes are not comfortable. High heel shoes and tight clothing is not worn for comfort nor are push up bras and plunging necklines. Try again...

[unofan]

Even if I were to agree that an opinion (especially mine) can be "wrongheaded", I'm going to disagree with you to an extent.

Recall that the legal definition of sexual harassment entails unwelcome advances or conduct of a sexual nature. Traditionally I think the EEOC has looked to see whether the alleged victim has "invited or incited" the advance.

Again, do I think Carlson sent some message that she wanted to sleep with Ailes? Probably not. But my whole point, which Handy correctly deduced, is that I don't have a lot of sympathy for eye candy when someone ultimately decides they want to take a piece. But, as noted, it's just one man's opinion.

Just as mere staring is not harassment, dressing provocatively is not inviting lewd comments or actions. If they violate the dress code, reprimand them for that. If they aren't, then they aren't doing anything wrong. And either way, you shouldn't be dipping your pen in the company ink, so keep your mouth shut and hands to yourself.

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Well, I used "wrongheaded" instead of "wrong" to try to capture that difference -- wrongheaded seems to me to be "a logical conclusion derived from axioms which are wrong."

But I think we've gotten to the core of our difference. You equate wearing alluring clothes with welcoming or inciting sexual advances. I don't at all. Is a married woman who wears alluring clothes to work inviting adultery? Or does she maybe like looking that way and wearing those clothes? Even with a single girl, maybe she's after a particular guy. Is that guy you? Very, very unlikely. (And the guys who get nailed for sexual harassment are invariably guys who look, sound and act like Roger Ailes.) So hands off, eyes front, dude.

Ultimately it comes down to...did she tell him to stop or make it clear she wasnt interested? If not...well sorry but then she is SOL. She isnt some secretary in an office trying to keep a job so she can keep her kids insured, she works for a major news network and has contacts everywhere. She knows the damage she could do to him...if she really felt as bad as she now claims why not just go public or smear him to contacts?

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

***. This from the same ****ing nation that won't throw rapists in jail because they need the college experience.

That is way worse than all of this...

[unofan]

Ultimately it comes down to...did she tell him to stop or make it clear she wasnt interested? If not...well sorry but then she is SOL. She isnt some secretary in an office trying to keep a job so she can keep her kids insured, she works for a major news network and has contacts everywhere. She knows the damage she could do to him...if she really felt as bad as she now claims why not just go public or smear him to contacts?

Because there is a significent non-zero chance she would get black listed. She's not exactly in an industry where she could move to the next town over to start a new life.

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

I run a business that employs large numbers of younger people - 18 to 25 is not uncommon. They don't work directly for me but they're in the vicinity. Despite the fact 80% of the population here professes themselves Catholic there is no shortage of cleavage, skirts that push the boundaries of "within 4 inches of the knee" and there being a great many very pretty faces, I've never not been able to refrain from grabbing *****, winking, slinging innuendo, going cartoon google eyes on anyone nor asking for a date, etc., etc., etc. That is not not to say I've never glanced and you sure as hell notice these things as a hetero male, but to insist these circumstances renders you to be incapable of behaving yourself is beyond absurd.

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Because there is a significent non-zero chance she would get black listed. She's not exactly in an industry where she could move to the next town over to start a new life.

Please...if she outed Faux News MSNBC or CNN would hire her within hours. Then she writes a book and makes the talk show rounds...

This isnt the 1960s stop pretending it is.

[Kepler]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Ultimately it comes down to...did she tell him to stop or make it clear she wasnt interested? If not...well sorry but then she is SOL.

Again, I just do not agree. In 2016 people have to be three TPS reports short of an FAT to make a pass at anyone at work -- 100x so if it's a subordinate! I don't care whether Sally in accounting is wearing f-ck me pumps and a see-through teddy, you don't sh-t where you eat. Commandments 5 and 7, bra, for at least two reasons: (1) she can do what she wants without having to put up with your gross macking on her, and (2) even in the insanely unlikely instance where you are invited, if anything goes wrong the risk-reward is simply too high. Paychecks > office sex.

[SJHovey]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Because there is a significent non-zero chance she would get black listed. She's not exactly in an industry where she could move to the next town over to start a new life.

I don't necessarily disagree with you. But who would be more concerned about getting blacklisted for not putting out, Maureen Dowd or Britt McHenry?

[Handyman]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Again, I just do not agree. In 2016 people have to be three TPS reports short of an FAT to make a pass at anyone at work -- 100x so if it's a subordinate! I don't care whether Sally in accounting is wearing f-ck me pumps and a see-through teddy, you don't sh-t where you eat. Commandments 5 and 7, bra.

Wait a minute, you are arguing two different things. I am not advocating that he hit on her or that people **** where they eat...I am just saying fair is fair. Looking is not harassment, and comments arent until you say to stop.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm

unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical harassment of a sexual nature.

Now overall you could say Faux is a hostile work environment and I buy that but me looking at Sally's tight sweater is no more harassment then her looking at the shirtless construction guy fixing the parking lot. If she says "eyes up here" though then yeah you are right.

There is a difference between being creepy and sexually harassing someone in the legal sense.

[Slap Shot]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

Pretty sure Kep isn't saying an occasional glance is cause for burning it all down. That will happen.

[Jimjamesak]

If you actually read what we are talking about you would know those clothes are not comfortable. High heel shoes and tight clothing is not worn for comfort nor are push up bras and plunging necklines. Try again...

No I read what you were saying and I stand by what I said. Comfort is a relative thing. Those kind of clothes may not seem comfortable to you but to others they feel great. I'm sorry but it's archaic and horribly sexist to say that a woman can't dress a certain way unless she wants to attract attention and that they only dress that way to attract attention. JFC womens bodies are more than sex objects.

[Jimjamesak]

Pretty sure Kep isn't saying an occasional glance is cause for burning it all down. That will happen.

That's what I got out of it. Everyone is guilty of the occasional glance.

[unofan]

Wait a minute, you are arguing two different things. I am not advocating that he hit on her or that people **** where they eat...I am just saying fair is fair. Looking is not harassment, and comments arent until you say to stop.

https://www.eeoc.gov/laws/types/sexual_harassment.cfm



Now overall you could say Faux is a hostile work environment and I buy that but me looking at Sally's tight sweater is no more harassment then her looking at the shirtless construction guy fixing the parking lot. If she says "eyes up here" though then yeah you are right.

There is a difference between being creepy and sexually harassing someone in the legal sense.

Comments can be even if you don't say stop. Generally you would need more, but to put it into context, dropping the n-word just one time could be seen as racial harassment.

[SJHovey]

Re: Nice Planet XII: It's Cruel to be Kind!

No I read what you were saying and I stand by what I said. Comfort is a relative thing. Those kind of clothes may not seem comfortable to you but to others they feel great. I'm sorry but it's archaic and horribly sexist to say that a woman can't dress a certain way unless she wants to attract attention and that they only dress that way to attract attention. JFC womens bodies are more than sex objects.

People may think it's archaic and sexist, but I guarantee you that in a case like this the way the woman dresses, acts, etc..., is going to be relevant evidence as to whether the conduct was welcome or invited.