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Thread: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

  1. #321
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    All drops in the bucket. And 'dirty cheap' is far less than indefinitely burning fossel fuels.

    Is one million homes inconsequential? Clown will have to be greatest perfectionist in history once we get to the 2020s.

    http://www.healthnutnews.com/worlds-...mes-in-nevada/
    Building a solar plant in arid Nevada is a lot different than building one in MN. You understand that, right?
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    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    Building a solar plant in arid Nevada is a lot different than building one in MN. You understand that, right?
    I do. The claims you guys have been making against solar for years is that it well never be consequential in the United States due to 'barriers that can never be crossed due to physics'. Obviously science has and will always continue to obliterate 'barriers of physics'.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    I do. The claims you guys have been making against solar for years is that it well never be consequential in the United States due to 'barriers that can never be crossed due to physics'. Obviously science has and will always continue to obliterate 'barriers of physics'.
    That's not how physics works.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    That's not how physics works.
    Well then evidently powering a million homes with solar means physics not working. Lynah spent all this time showing all these numbers of how solar panels would never amount to anything. I never understood that logic. Scientific improvement never stops.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Well then evidently powering a million homes with solar means physics not working. Lynah spent all this time showing all these numbers of how solar panels would never amount to anything. I never understood that logic. Scientific improvement never stops.
    No, we don't "obliterate 'barriers of physics'," we learn more about how various things in our world interact with one another to make them work better within the laws of physics. We continue to grow our understanding of how the physical world works.

    And you're forgetting - or intentionally omitting - a key component to everyone's arguments against solar energy: the cost of collecting, storing and transmitting it when compared to other forms of energy production. Look at the cost/unit of solar vs. that of other forms. It's still prohibitive for truly large scale usage. One million homes contain a population of around four million people. We have more than 330MM people in the US, so you're thumping your chest at meeting just over 1% of our energy needs, and that solar farm is located in one of the best possible locations in this country for its production. The efficacy rate of land usage vs. energy production in MN will be nowhere near as high. Try building one of these things in Seattle.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    And you're forgetting - or intentionally omitting - a key component to everyone's arguments against solar energy: the cost of collecting, storing and transmitting it when compared to other forms of energy production. Look at the cost/unit of solar vs. that of other forms. It's still prohibitive for truly large scale usage.
    Accounted for.

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    One million homes contain a population of around four million people. We have more than 330MM people in the US, so you're thumping your chest at meeting just over 1% of our energy needs, and that solar farm is located in one of the best possible locations in this country for its production. The efficacy rate of land usage vs. energy production in MN will be nowhere near as high. Try building one of these things in Seattle.
    Nearly 10% of California's household consumption from one solar farm by one energy company? Amazing. Now solar is a failure if it doesn't power Seattle?
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    As some engineers claimed here five years ago, solar will never be consequential.

    Oh except for a new solar farm that will power 20,000 homes and which is located in that solar hotbed of Minnesota. Other than that...

    http://kstp.com/news/solar-project-c...123/?cat=12196
    Got to love the "its expected" part. So it will meet all their electrical needs, day and night for 20,000 homes?
    Look I'm all for solar, I'll bet I'm the only guy on here who actually uses Solar to heat hot water and uses it to help heat 2 different buildings. I'm also taken classes to get NABCEP certified as a PV installer. I found out I wouldn't try to sell a PV system to anyone who wasn't out to save the planet. It doesn't work right now. if Tesla battery packs will get it so you can go off grid then I'm all for it. Until then "simple math" takes solar off the table . That certainly doesn't mean in the future it won't work. Instead of alternate energy, conservation will do more for less in the immediate future. How you get folks to do that is beyond me?

    I'm all for these solar farms but until I see the actual amount of energy they really produce they are a losing proposition
    Last edited by walrus; 10-20-2016 at 06:07 PM.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Got to love the "its expected" part. So it will meet all their electrical needs, day and night for 20,000 homes?
    Look I'm all for solar, I'll bet I'm the only guy on here who actually uses Solar to heat hot water and uses it to help heat 2 different buildings. I'm also taken classes to get NABCEP certified as a PV installer. I found out I wouldn't try to sell a PV system to anyone who wasn't out to save the planet. It doesn't work right now. if Tesla battery packs will get it so you can go off grid then I'm all for it. Until then "simple math" takes solar off the table . That certainly doesn't mean in the future it won't work. Instead of alternate energy, conservation will do more for less in the immediate future. How you get folks to do that is beyond me?

    I'm all for these solar farms but until I see the actual amount of energy they really produce they are a losing proposition
    Nearly every technology that has gotten to this stage has had glitches. But nearly every technology that has gotten to this stage of development has turned out to be a global standard. It will happen and those that take the lumps will be heavily rewarded...with the rest of society reaping huge benefits. And the US needs to be in the drivers seat. Services, content and new technology. We win in those areas or the whole country turns into Akron.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Nearly every technology that has gotten to this stage has had glitches. But nearly every technology that has gotten to this stage of development has turned out to be a global standard. It will happen and those that take the lumps will be heavily rewarded...with the rest of society reaping huge benefits. And the US needs to be in the drivers seat. Services, content and new technology. We win in those areas or the whole country turns into Akron.
    Once again you need to examine the numbers, the amount of Electrical energy consumed in the US. Lifestyle changes will be needed for solar to be a standard in the US. I make solar work for me because I can install it and service it.. That isn't going to be true for most folks.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    I make solar work for me because I can install it and service it.. That isn't going to be true for most folks.
    But if you can do it that means a whole service industry will start to grow up around installing and servicing it. I can't wire my house, either. That skill cliff is a business opportunity, not an impediment to the technology.

    Here's a nice table showing the adoption trend lines of various techs. The "half-life" (0 to 50% of consumers) of telephones was 30 years; for the internet it was 15 years. I'm taking as the starting line cost effectiveness, since if a tech is not cost effective trending remains at zero. Whenever it is we hit cost effectiveness for renewables generation of electricity, the installation won't be an important barrier.
    Last edited by Kepler; 10-21-2016 at 02:19 PM.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    But if you can do it that means a whole service industry will start to grow up around installing and servicing it. I can't wire my house, either. That skill cliff is a business opportunity, not an impediment to the technology..
    Thats why I got NABCEP certified but what I found out after doing that was the technology is still years out. The tech that is there works but the payback still isn't. I'm old and can't/won't do that roof work so I'm not going to cash in on solar but someone will. I can wire your house also but residential work sucks so I don't do it
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    But if you can do it that means a whole service industry will start to grow up around installing and servicing it. I can't wire my house, either. That skill cliff is a business opportunity, not an impediment to the technology.

    Here's a nice table showing the adoption trend lines of various techs. The "half-life" (0 to 50% of consumers) of telephones was 30 years; for the internet it was 15 years. I'm taking as the starting line cost effectiveness, since if a tech is not cost effective trending remains at zero. Whenever it is we hit cost effectiveness for renewables generation of electricity, the installation won't be an important barrier.
    walrus, this may not help you now. But Kep's senario will happen - pretty much every new tech hits the same curve. Large installations are and will continue to make solar a top energy standard for even household installations. Doesn't help the small household installer today.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    You know the industry is working when the con sounds more like, "wishful thinking" than the pro. Sad and embarrassing.

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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by 5mn_Major View Post
    Well then evidently powering a million homes with solar means physics not working. Lynah spent all this time showing all these numbers of how solar panels would never amount to anything. I never understood that logic. Scientific improvement never stops.
    You rang?

    I've been off the board for several weeks (school, work), and just happened to come into this thread first...coincidence?

    It's absolutely hysterical that you think that providing part of the power for 20,000 homes (less than 1% of the 2.4 million housing units in Minnesota) somehow constitutes "amounting to something." Going back to the math (which I realize is not your friend), average insolation in Minneapolis for fixed flat panels is only 4.6 KWh/m2/day (http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data...sum2/14922.txt). If the panels are 15% efficient (generous), then that's an average of just 5KW that can be delivered to each of the 20,000 homes, which is enough to run the microwave, a couple hair dryers, and some lights. Peak electricity usage for a typical single family home is on the order of 20-30 KW.

    So tell us again how this is consequential - because of how big it is and how much money they spent on it? Kind of proving my point for me, there....
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by LynahFan View Post
    You rang?

    I've been off the board for several weeks (school, work), and just happened to come into this thread first...coincidence?

    It's absolutely hysterical that you think that providing part of the power for 20,000 homes (less than 1% of the 2.4 million housing units in Minnesota) somehow constitutes "amounting to something." Going back to the math (which I realize is not your friend), average insolation in Minneapolis for fixed flat panels is only 4.6 KWh/m2/day (http://rredc.nrel.gov/solar/old_data...sum2/14922.txt). If the panels are 15% efficient (generous), then that's an average of just 5KW that can be delivered to each of the 20,000 homes, which is enough to run the microwave, a couple hair dryers, and some lights. Peak electricity usage for a typical single family home is on the order of 20-30 KW.

    So tell us again how this is consequential - because of how big it is and how much money they spent on it? Kind of proving my point for me, there....
    20,000 homes for one installation in Minnesota is pretty good. Did you read any subsequent posts?

    Since you presented information saying that solar would never be viable, CA went from producing 0.7% of its household needs in 2012 to 7.6% in 2015. And the 2015 numbers don't include the massive installations that have begun since then (globally 2015 averaged a half million solar installations every day http://grist.org/briefly/half-a-mill...y-day-in-2015/). Likewise CA solar alone peaked this summer powering 6 million homes...that's about 5 percent of the total US households. And as the below article below states, there is a single installation being considered that by itself would power 1% of total US households. And every day, solar expands its reach. Still not sure how math says that is will never be viable.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    The Polar Vortex will be shifting away from its normal location this winter due to climate change, according to Martyn Chipperfield, professor of atmospheric chemistry at the University of Leeds. It's expected to center over Europe, which is supposed to make it very cold for the northeastern portion of the United States while giving Europe a moderate winter.
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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    The Polar Vortex will be shifting away from its normal location this winter due to climate change, according to Martyn Chipperfield, professor of atmospheric chemistry at the University of Leeds. It's expected to center over Europe, which is supposed to make it very cold for the northeastern portion of the United States while giving Europe a moderate winter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    The Polar Vortex will be shifting away from its normal location this winter due to climate change, according to Martyn Chipperfield, professor of atmospheric chemistry at the University of Leeds. It's expected to center over Europe, which is supposed to make it very cold for the northeastern portion of the United States while giving Europe a moderate winter.
    Didn't NOAA just say it was going to warmer than usual this winter

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    Re: Science: Vaccines Work, GMOs Are Safe, Everything is a Chemical

    Quote Originally Posted by walrus View Post
    Didn't NOAA just say it was going to warmer than usual this winter
    Depends where you live.

    drier, warmer winters in the southern U.S and wetter, cooler conditions in the northern U.S.
    But in any case we're talking about different contributors to the weather: La Nina vs Polar Vortex. The Mets will win more because their pitching is great but they will lose more because their hitting sucks. Those are not contradictory statements.

    If these are the sole contributors (which they obviously aren't -- weather is complicated) it looks like hockey country is in deep sh-t.
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