Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

One guess would be: truth.

But there are a few things wrong with your question. First off, you greatly overestimate the amount of energy 99% of atheists spend in discouraging people from their faith. We do say things like, "there is no God," but that's simply an empirical observation. Are people of faith "discouraging atheists" with the endless litany of references to supernaturalism in their daily lives? No, they're just speaking from their worldview. As are we.

Secondly, magical thinking is a notoriously bad way of trying to make sense of the world. Even granting that it offer solace in times of tremendous suffering, perhaps those times of suffering wouldn't happen quite so much if they started taking rational rather than supernatural approaches to life? It is worth considering, anyway.

Finally, I can only speak from personal experience, but non believers learn very young that they live in a world where people take their superstitions very seriously, and it is Very Bad Form to challenge anything to do with faith. The threat of violence by the mob against the "other" is always there, so we learn to let the kids believe in Santa and leave them alone. If you contrast the torrent of religious imagery with the trickle of atheist imagery, you might realize the tremendous difference in power and pressure. However the very ubiquity of religious symbology makes it fade into the background for most believers. Contemporaries didn't notice that Amos and Andy was racist because that's just the way blacks were portrayed. Likewise, believers have very little inkling of what it is to be an atheist and essentially be surrounded by irrational, potentially dangerous, sleep walkers. Trust me: we have no interest in waking you up.

Forgive me if I focus on Christianity here for a mn. I don't know if there's anything wrong with the question. So what does a Christian want for others? What does an atheist want for others? Is that the central question? Maybe not for an atheist, but its definitely up there for a Christian.

Let's say best case scenario for atheists, that God doesn't exist...which of course can't be proven either. Based on what you're saying, atheists put realism>positive personal outcomes. There's nothing wrong with that...even with that best case atheist scenario, realism>positive personal outcomes is just a different point of view. Christians who would flip those due to the golden rule.

[unofan]

Yes, you did. Faith does bring something to the table for many...atheism needs to do the same (Kep has advanced something on that) if it wants to be a viable path.

Learning is typically good...soul searching is also. Don't you agree?

I would encourage someone to evaluate both faith based and non faith based paths if it can help them (hoping for better outcomes is part of the golden rule). Maybe I'm wrong, but atheists do spend a lot of energy trying to make sure people don't do this type of soul searching.

Don't walk away...tell me if I'm wrong.

I guess I get confused because you and fishy argue that "evangelical atheists," for lack of a better term, are annoying but don't acknowledge or at least seem to give a pass to missionaries or evangelical religious people who do the exact same thing, just from a religious perspective.

I'm all for encouraging people to evaluate all their options, but I don't see how, logically, religious proselytizing is any better than the atheist alternative. They're both done by annoying busy bodies, in my mind. Just different sides of the same coin.

[unofan]

Forgive me if I focus on Christianity here for a mn. I don't know if there's anything wrong with the question. So what does a Christian want for others? What does an atheist want for others? Is that the central question? Maybe not for an atheist, but its definitely up there for a Christian.

Let's say best case scenario for atheists, that God doesn't exist...which of course can't be proven either. Based on what you're saying, atheists put realism>positive personal outcomes. There's nothing wrong with that...even with that best case atheist scenario, realism>positive personal outcomes is just a different point of view. Christians who would flip those due to the golden rule.

You're mixing apples and giraffes again.

The non-religious don't compare realism to positive personal outcomes.

The comparison is reason (or realism, or empirical thinking) vs. faith.

Positive personal outcomes can be and generally are desired by people of any, all, or no faiths. The difference is in how you get there.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

You are wrong. Atheists are probably far more given to that type of self-scrutiny. With religion most believers check the box marked "what is it to be a good person?" pass Go, and collect $200 and eternal life. Without a check box, atheists have to craft and live our own philosophy and in so doing have to continually face foundational questions of good and bad, right and wrong.

Religious people are using an app. Atheists are building an app. Religious people are taught how to be a good person from one perspective. Atheists explore what goodness is.

Now, nothing prevents religious people from thinking outside the box and educating themselves on other perspectives, and teasing out the differences and commonalities. But that is not required to live a good life under their system. It's extra effort which many (most?) are not interested in. Atheists can't get out of it -- we start with a clean sheet and have to write our story ourselves.

So I hear that we have an app...and atheists are building one on the fly.

So let's talk about this building on the fly. What was so wrong about Jesus teaching? Are you going to say 'nothing, its just great...I just don't believe in a guy sitting in a cloud'? Then why be a vocal atheist...who works against Jesus teaching? The principles are largely the same. People are using the same computer code as you and larger society to make decisions in their own lives. For many Christians, the Word is God (by definition). If one believes in Jesus' teaching are great and doesn't get so hung up on the big guy sitting in the cloud...then your views become so similar to that of many Christians. Then why not encourage exploration of those teachings (the Word) and possible benefits it can provide?

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

You're mixing apples and giraffes again.

The non-religious don't compare realism to positive personal outcomes.

The comparison is reason (or realism, or empirical thinking) vs. faith.

Positive personal outcomes can be and generally are desired by people of any, all, or no faiths. The difference is in how you get there.

Again, I don't think one can prove faith is not reasonable.

But regardless...good...as you state, a question of reason vs. faith. So by definition, if many situations faith=positive personal outcomes that otherwise wouldn't be. Doesn't it then become 'reason vs. positive personal outcomes'?

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

So I hear that we have an app...and atheists are building one on the fly.

So let's talk about this building on the fly. What was so wrong about Jesus teaching? Are you going to say 'nothing, its just great...I just don't believe in a guy sitting in a cloud'? Then why be a vocal atheist...who works against Jesus teaching? The principles are largely the same. People are using the same computer code as you and larger society to make decisions in their own lives. For many Christians, the Word is God (by definition). If one believes in Jesus' teaching are great and doesn't get so hung up on the big guy sitting in the cloud...then your views become so similar to that of many Christians. Then why not encourage exploration of those teachings (the Word) and possible benefits it can provide?

Peace and love are great, the Eye in the Sky creates the problem because so many of these people who attest that they're living in Jesus's light are some of the most hate filled bigots I've ever met.

You have a very distorted view of a great many Christians. It's been my experience, including far too many of my cousins fitting this bill, that Christians have a great deal of love and compassion for certain people and certain plights, but become very indignant if it's not the right set of circumstances, and those circumstances seem to change with the blowing winds at times. They also tend to be the most vocal Christians out there.

[unofan]

Again, I don't think one can prove faith is not reasonable.

But regardless...good...as you state, a question of reason vs. faith. So by definition, if many situations faith=positive personal outcomes that otherwise wouldn't be. Doesn't it then become 'reason vs. positive personal outcomes'?

I don't subscribe to your premise that faith inherently provides for more positive personal outcomes than realism. So no, it doesn't follow.

It may provide for different outcomes, to be sure. But different is simply that, different. They are not inherently better or worse options.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

You have a very distorted view of a great many Christians. It's been my experience, including far too many of my cousins fitting this bill, that Christians have a great deal of love and compassion for certain people and certain plights, but become very indignant if it's not the right set of circumstances, and those circumstances seem to change with the blowing winds at times. They also tend to be the most vocal Christians out there.

I don't think I do. I know that many Christians are terrible human beings. To that end, I've learned that x% of every strata in every society are terrible human beings. And I have no evidence that these are truly wonderful people before Christianity...and that Jesus turns them into A holes. None. I also find it unlikely that the folks who are really looking for answers in their life...and whom could benefit from some direction...would turn into terrible people with the discovery of the Word. In this context, faith is really a tool.

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I don't subscribe to your premise that faith inherently provides for more positive personal outcomes than realism. So no, it doesn't follow.

You don't subscribe that faith in any permutation has the ability to provide more positive outcomes than realism?

[unofan]

You don't subscribe that faith in any permutation has the ability to provide more positive outcomes than realism?

I don't subscribe that faith of any permutation will provide more positive outcomes in the aggregate across humanity as a whole.

It may well provide a positive influence for some, maybe even many, individuals. But I think faith also can lead people to go down many dark paths.

Cultists are faithful. Islamic extremists are faithful. Prosperity Gospel preachers are faithful. That doesn't mean faith has been a positive influence on them.

Hence why it should be an individual choice.

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I don't subscribe to your premise that faith inherently provides for more positive personal outcomes than realism.

This. Claiming that atheism brings nothing to the table for humans, whereas faith - living how you're told to live because a deity and/or his prophet says this is the only way - somehow does, is the kind of logic I expect from someone who has to justify his entire existence by believing in a higher power. Someone who is too unimaginative to consider the alternatives.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

So I hear that we have an app...and atheists are building one on the fly.

So let's talk about this building on the fly. What was so wrong about Jesus teaching? Are you going to say 'nothing, its just great...I just don't believe in a guy sitting in a cloud'? Then why be a vocal atheist...who works against Jesus teaching? The principles are largely the same. People are using the same computer code as you and larger society to make decisions in their own lives. For many Christians, the Word is God (by definition). If one believes in Jesus' teaching are great and doesn't get so hung up on the big guy sitting in the cloud...then your views become so similar to that of many Christians. Then why not encourage exploration of those teachings (the Word) and possible benefits it can provide?

I won't be able to respond at length now and this deserves it, so bear with me until I have time next week.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Peace and love are great, the Eye in the Sky creates the problem because so many of these people who attest that they're living in Jesus's light are some of the most hate filled bigots I've ever met.

You have a very distorted view of a great many Christians. It's been my experience, including far too many of my cousins fitting this bill, that Christians have a great deal of love and compassion for certain people and certain plights, but become very indignant if it's not the right set of circumstances, and those circumstances seem to change with the blowing winds at times. They also tend to be the most vocal Christians out there.

In my experience the more obnoxious, intolerant people are more visible than those who quietly try to do the right thing. Just like I don't view the extremist Muslims as 'real' Muslims, I tend not to view obnoxious, judgemental 'Christians' as 'real' either.

This. Claiming that atheism brings nothing to the table for humans, whereas faith - living how you're told to live because a deity and/or his prophet says this is the only way - somehow does, is the kind of logic I expect from someone who has to justify his entire existence by believing in a higher power. Someone who is too unimaginative to consider the alternatives.

Maybe it is because Faith tends to have a set of beliefs or rules that are laid out where as Atheists are not an organized entity and are defined more by what they do not believe rather than what they believe. Not saying that Atheists bring nothing but more that they are stand alone vs a structured organization. (If not, then I stand corrected)

[FadeToBlack&Gold]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

IMO, the only requirement for being an atheist, is to not believe in any sort of power greater than the physics and natural energies of the universe. By extension, it means believing that humanity and the sciences have the ability to eventually learn what it all means, without having to resort to explanations of gods, magic, mysticism, and other, purely faith-based explanations.

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

IMO, the only requirement for being an atheist, is to not believe in any sort of power greater than the physics and natural energies of the universe. By extension, it means believing that humanity and the sciences have the ability to eventually learn what it all means, without having to resort to explanations of gods, magic, mysticism, and other, purely faith-based explanations.

but Athiests do not have a directive to do anything in particular where as most religions do