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Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

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  • Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
    Not being a Catholic (and a heretical Lutheran, to boot) I found this view fascinating and it lost me a bit.

    I realize I am not a Catholic (so my logic might be correct). I thought the belief is a Pope was chosen because God moves those who vote into the correct direction. The Pope is supposed to be the 'mouthpiece' on earth for God. If this is so, how can the Pope be bad? Isn't this akin to saying God is screwing up? (serious question, not flaming) I listen to this Pope and he sounds like the various Prophets in the Bible who told the peoples they had lost their way, become too obsessed with maintaining the status quo, focusing on human made rules and institutions, not God's work. The people predictably didn't like the message. From the outside it seems as if this Pope is calling people to account for having lost their way, getting mired in preserving power, various 'structures' with in the system rather than focusing on how to minister to the faithful. The people invested in the 'Institution', who have the power, are unhappy and obviously most people don't like to reorg- it is unsettling. (I obviously don't know enough background to know if my logic is correct in the context of the Church's teachings)

    When mr les and I were first together I considered being Catholic but had a hard time with Doctrine over the Bible. Contemplated for a while but couldn't get past Doctrine rules that were in opposition to Scripture. As a non-Catholic I would have rated the last Pope as the most ineffective and off putting of all the those I remember. To me he appeared intolerant, rigid, defending people who should never have been defended, ignoring or excusing errors instead of saying yes we were wrong and mea culpa (he did the mea culpa thing a few times but after first trying to squirm off the hook- making it seem less sincere). My general impression was he was more interested in preserving the 'Institution' of the Church than on the reason it exists.

    My FIL is very Catholic and we have had many discussions about Church teaching mostly centered around Matthew. Jesus chastises the Pharisees and Sadducees for preaching rigic adherence to the Rule while forgetting the point of it. Many times the FIL would say he couldn't explain the reasoning. No more lively discussions since this Pope came in. This Pope could almost convince me to be Catholic. He seems to have remembered Christianity is supposed to be 'Go and do likewise' and is a walking example that he is willing to do so. He is the first Pope in many years I feel has behaved in a Christ-like way both as a person and a leader of the Church.

    Long winded but I guess my question is how can a Pope, ordained by God to be a leader, be bad?
    Because he is a man and subject to all the temptations that we in the laity face.

    There have been some pretty disgusting Popes. There are a few books out there that detail the lives of the Popes, both good and bad.

    Matthew 16:18-19
    "18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
    CCT '77 & '78
    4 kids
    5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
    1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

    ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
    - Benjamin Franklin

    Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

    I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

      There were some very colorful Popes during medieval and Renaissance times. Popes who bribed and bought their way into the office. Popes who were war profiteers, and actively condoned torture of enemies and heretics. Popes who had multiple wives, concubines, and dozens of children. Popes whose sole ambitions were worldly wealth and power, and used the Church to those ends.

      Francis has yet to match the misdeeds of any of them. The problems he has are with conservatives who believe in moral absolutes, and feel he is moving too quickly towards relativism, creating an even bigger "Church of Nice".

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      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

        Originally posted by joecct View Post
        Because he is a man and subject to all the temptations that we in the laity face.

        There have been some pretty disgusting Popes. There are a few books out there that detail the lives of the Popes, both good and bad.

        Matthew 16:18-19
        "18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

        19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
        Pope history is really, really interesting. Looked into it a long time ago when one of my Confirmation kid' parents had a question about something. From what I could glean, not from Catholic sources (which have the most extraordinary circular logic) Pope history- non-Catholic style from memory, not completely accurate~~I just tried to Google it but everything I get is Catholic~~There is disagreement with Peter being the original pope in many sects of Christianity, the quote you gave interpreted as metaphorical, not a declaration. Initially there were 4 major popes (really big time Bishops) for the 4 large areas: Byzantine, Rome, 2 others in Northern Africa. In other areas their power waned as time went on. The Roman Pope became more powerful ascended to more than Church leader when the Visigoths invaded around Rome and he intervened. Initially the Pope was like the 'Chairman of the Board' of Cardinal College. The College was more powerful and the Pope was the voted leader. Over time he became more elevated from the College and in the late 1800s was declared infallible.

        The infallible part is the thing that confuses me. If he has been declared infallible how can he be bad? If he is fallibly infallible then how can one discern between humans rejecting his leadership because they are trying to avoid what they don't want to hear.

        http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/rise-papacy/ isn't one of the original sources I read but it kind of is a synopsis

        Explanation I dug out doesn't help me much. Emphasis mine- Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."

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        • Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
          Pope history is really, really interesting. Looked into it a long time ago when one of my Confirmation kid' parents had a question about something. From what I could glean, not from Catholic sources (which have the most extraordinary circular logic) Pope history- non-Catholic style from memory, not completely accurate~~I just tried to Google it but everything I get is Catholic~~There is disagreement with Peter being the original pope in many sects of Christianity, the quote you gave interpreted as metaphorical, not a declaration. Initially there were 4 major popes (really big time Bishops) for the 4 large areas: Byzantine, Rome, 2 others in Northern Africa. In other areas their power waned as time went on. The Roman Pope became more powerful ascended to more than Church leader when the Visigoths invaded around Rome and he intervened. Initially the Pope was like the 'Chairman of the Board' of Cardinal College. The College was more powerful and the Pope was the voted leader. Over time he became more elevated from the College and in the late 1800s was declared infallible.

          The infallible part is the thing that confuses me. If he has been declared infallible how can he be bad? If he is fallibly infallible then how can one discern between humans rejecting his leadership because they are trying to avoid what they don't want to hear.

          http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/rise-papacy/ isn't one of the original sources I read but it kind of is a synopsis

          Explanation I dug out doesn't help me much. Emphasis mine- Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope "enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32), he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter."
          Infallibe ONLY on matters of Faith and Morals. If he told me to vote Democrat because they treat refugees better than the Republicans, I have as much duty to obey him as I would from following the opinions in the New York Times.

          Luther did not like what he saw and in good faith tried to change the doins. However the Pope at the time was not interested, and the Reformation/Revolution got political when the kings and dukes figured out that if they gave Rome the finger, they could get their hands on the temporal holdings and bank accounts of Holy Mother Church.

          Then it got REALLY ugly. Heads rolled.

          Read this on noted Lutheran theologian Thomas Piepkorn. It's kind of neat

          https://secker.sharepoint.com/Pages/...yPiepkorn.aspx
          Last edited by joecct; 01-29-2017, 03:51 PM.
          CCT '77 & '78
          4 kids
          5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
          1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

          ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
          - Benjamin Franklin

          Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

          I want to live forever. So far, so good.

          Comment


          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

            Originally posted by joecct View Post
            Infallibe ONLY on matters of Faith and Morals.
            This is a new, politically-motivated addendum. Mother Church instructs us on matters of Faith. That's it. On everything else, from abortion to the death penalty, opinions are like as-sholes.
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            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
              This is a new, politically-motivated addendum. Mother Church instructs us on matters of Faith. That's it. On everything else, from abortion to the death penalty, opinions are like as-sholes.
              Most humans who explain information have bias. Go straight to the source - the Word - and you're good.
              Go Gophers!

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              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                Most humans who explain information have bias. Go straight to the source - the Word - and you're good.
                You'd make a lousy Catholic.

                We're not supposed to know anything about the Bible. That's why we've got a Front Office to explain it all to us.
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                • Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                  Most humans who explain information have bias. Go straight to the source - the Word - and you're good.
                  I do not question the Word, only what man has made of it.

                  And in John 1, we have "In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God..."
                  CCT '77 & '78
                  4 kids
                  5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                  1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                  ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                  - Benjamin Franklin

                  Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                  I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                  Comment


                  • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                    Originally posted by joecct View Post
                    And in John 1, we have "In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God..."
                    And it's inscribed on the tablet of our hearts.

                    I've never understood how so many people could misinterpret this straightforward statement. "God is not a person, it's a code written in our hearts. Soul is not a thing, it's a state of being."

                    It's just always been kinda obvious to me that everything else is a fairy story (much of the story being pretty icky, actually -- though some parts lovely), and if you can latch on to the truth of the lead-in that's all you need.
                    Cornell University
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                    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                      Originally posted by joecct View Post
                      I do not question the Word, only what man has made of it.

                      And in John 1, we have "In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God..."
                      Still doesn't explain how people can cherrypick the interpretations of the church. Really am trying to understand, not flame. Being Lutheran the job is to question how the things fit with the Scriptures. The whole division happened because Luther thought the Doctrines were straying from or contradicting scripture. Lutherans have long dialogues within their home church and amongst churches in the synod about how to interpret lines of Scripture. One of my favorite lines is "put ten people in the room. Read a Bible verse and you will have 10 opinions on what it says." With that belief it is impossible to discern the true meaning of the quote above.

                      What I think I am seeing you say is- you are responsible to obey the Pope only if you agree with his interpretation and motivation of his dictates. Your job is to decide if what he is doing is correct. He doesn't have the moral authority to instruct you unless you make the determination that it fits into certain parts of life.

                      This is definitely different from what many of my friends believe the instruction from the Church is. Most of them have no intention of following what they are told- no birth control being a good example. They seem to feel that even if they are not going to follow the dictates the Pope has the right to declare them. They go to Church to get absolution to remove the stain of sin that they commit when they defy the dictates. I always thought the Pope was supposed to instruct you on all aspects of life as the Spirit moved him.

                      (the Unitarian upbringing is coming out. Religion is fascinating)
                      Last edited by leswp1; 01-29-2017, 09:15 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                        Still doesn't explain how people can cherrypick the interpretations of the church. Really am trying to understand, not flame. Being Lutheran the job is to question how the things fit with the Scriptures. The whole division happened because Luther thought the Doctrines were straying from or contradicting scripture. Lutherans have long dialogues within their home church and amongst churches in the synod about how to interpret lines of Scripture. One of my favorite lines is "put ten people in the room. Read a Bible verse and you will have 10 opinions on what it says." With that belief it is impossible to discern the true meaning of the quote above.

                        What I think I am seeing you say is- you are responsible to obey the Pope only if you agree with his interpretation and motivation of his dictates. Your job is to decide if what he is doing is correct. He doesn't have the moral authority to instruct you unless you make the determination that it fits into certain parts of life.

                        This is definitely different from what many of my friends believe the instruction from the Church is. Most of them have no intention of following what they are told- no birth control being a good example. They seem to feel that even if they are not going to follow the dictates the Pope has the right to declare them. They go to Church to get absolution to remove the stain of sin that they commit when they defy the dictates. I always thought the Pope was supposed to instruct you on all aspects of life as the Spirit moved him.

                        (the Unitarian upbringing is coming out. Religion is fascinating)
                        We don't subscribe to Sola Scriptura.

                        Having one source of interpretation cuts down (or did) on everyone going off on tangents. It worked for us up until 50 or so years ago.
                        CCT '77 & '78
                        4 kids
                        5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                        1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                        ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                        - Benjamin Franklin

                        Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                        I want to live forever. So far, so good.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                          Originally posted by joecct View Post
                          We don't subscribe to Sola Scriptura.
                          This is one of the greatest understatements ever uttered.

                          Having one source of interpretation cuts down (or did) on everyone going off on tangents. It worked for us up until 50 or so years ago.
                          Well. Kinda. It "worked" in the sense that we kept losing huge chunks of believers, like the Eastern Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox and the Protestants.
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                          • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            This is one of the greatest understatements ever uttered.



                            Well. Kinda. It "worked" in the sense that we kept losing huge chunks of believers, like the Eastern Orthodox and the Greek Orthodox and the Protestants.
                            Don't forget about the lapsed Catholics!
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                            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                              Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
                              Don't forget about the lapsed Catholics!
                              I am unlikely to.
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                              • Originally posted by Jimjamesak View Post
                                Don't forget about the lapsed Catholics!
                                Oh yea. Don't get me started on 50+ years of bad catechesis, bad liturgy, bad sermons, and worse music.

                                I've started going to an Anglican Use (Ordnariate) parish. Better liturgy, better music, and the pastor and his wife have 8 kids.
                                CCT '77 & '78
                                4 kids
                                5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                                1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                                ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                                - Benjamin Franklin

                                Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                                I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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