Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

[Timothy A]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

If a guy could just cull the human opinions from the Inspired recorded Word of God he'd be in business.

2 Peter

1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

They're gonna be so horked off when they find out that the voice from heaven was really just Bob at the other end of a ventilation shaft.

[unofan]

2 Peter

1:16 For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power, but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”[b] 18 We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.

19 We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things. 21 For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.

No offense, but citing the source to prove the veracity of the source is not exactly going to convert anyone over. I understand you believe the Bible is the literal Word of God, but that's like saying just because someone took an oath to tell the truth on the witness stand, clearly they are telling the truth.

Real life doesn't work that way.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

No offense, but citing the source to prove the veracity of the source is not exactly going to convert anyone over. I understand you believe the Bible is the literal Word of God, but that's like saying just because someone took an oath to tell the truth on the witness stand, clearly they are telling the truth.

Real life doesn't work that way.

What is "real" life? No matter your methodology or your metaphysics, you're going to have some stuff that's outside its scope. How are you gonna deal with that?

A belief is not a reason. That is, in fact, the whole point of a belief system. There are certain things which are inherently non-reasonable. At that point, beliefs take over. My belief, for example, is that things which are non-reasonable quite literally have no reason nor purpose nor explanation. They're the way they are because that's the way the cookie crumbled in this dimension of this brane of this universe on this particular Monday. Is it a miracle that I just generated 5842304359? Nope -- there is no reason, it was all chance. There are some things that aren't chance, the length and char set which I input (the laws of physics and causality), but the sequence itself is non-reasonable. If 5842304359 happens to be self-aware, like you or me, it's probably not going to be happy with that answer and insist that being here means something thunk us up and put us here. That essence precedes existence.

Get used to disappointment. Existence precede essence. Essence is a cover story we make up afterwards to get some closure so we can stop worrying and feed the chickens. Early post-monkey proto-people who didn't use that circuit breaker got so wrapped up contemplating the zen of non-reason they didn't see the tiger wait, tiger? TIGER?! WHERE?!! RIGHT BEHI--

[unofan]

What is "real" life? No matter your methodology or your metaphysics, you're going to have some stuff that's outside its scope. How are you gonna deal with that?

A belief is not a reason. That is, in fact, the whole point of a belief system. There are certain things which are inherently non-reasonable. At that point, beliefs take over. My belief, for example, is that things which are non-reasonable quite literally have no reason nor purpose nor explanation. They're the way they are because that's the way the cookie crumbled in this dimension of this brane of this universe on this particular Monday. Is it a miracle that I just generated 5842304359? Nope -- there is no reason, it was all chance. There are some things that aren't chance, the length and char set which I input (the laws of physics and causality), but the sequence itself is non-reasonable. If 5842304359 happens to be self-aware, like you or me, it's probably not going to be happy with that answer and insist that being here means something thunk us up and put us here. That essence precedes existence.

Get used to disappointment. Existence precede essence. Essence is a cover story we make up afterwards to get some closure so we can stop worrying and feed the chickens. Early post-monkey proto-people who didn't use that circuit breaker got so wrapped up contemplating the zen of non-reason they didn't see the tiger wait, tiger? TIGER?! WHERE?!! RIGHT BEHI--

Oh please.

You know exactly what I meant, and you don't need to go philosophical to understand the basic point that you can't cite the source as proof that the source is correct.

Frankly, I don't get why that line from the Bible is even there. If you have Faith, you're going to believe anyway. If you don't, that line isn't going to sway anyone.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Oh please.

You know exactly what I meant, and you don't need to go philosophical to understand the basic point that you can't cite the source as proof that the source is correct.

Frankly, I don't get why that line from the Bible is even there. If you have Faith, you're going to believe anyway. If you don't, that line isn't going to sway anyone.

I wasn't lawyering the point, I was making it. It took me a long time to understand how people of faith are thinking when they use scripture to justify scripture. From their POV they are not being illogical, they're just not playing our reindeer games any more. They don't have to test the statement's truth because the statement is the truth table.

Frankly I would rather they justify their faith by terminating it back into their faith because all the abuses of logic they have committed trying to justify the supernatural without appealing to the supernatural have been a lot worse. Even Thomas lost patience with them (before doing almost as bad a job of his own).

The line's there because it's an enabling clause, and it also stakes out the territory for that scripture. How do you know the Bible's right? Cuz the Bible says so. But other holy books say they're right, how do you know they're wrong? Cuz they're not in the Bible. But how do you know that distinction's the test? One guess.

If I think I'm in love then I am in love. It's a category error to say that's circular logic -- rather, it's definitional. God is the love that claims itself to be universal. Self-reference isn't the problem; scope is.

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Sage words from Msgr Pope

http://blog.adw.org/2011/10/five-har...et-you-free-2/

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Sage words from Msgr Pope

http://blog.adw.org/2011/10/five-har...et-you-free-2/

I think those are among the five most important realizations about life. Though none of his points require the God hypothesis.

Much of the misreading of atheists by people of faith is they assume that without faith one or more of those axioms falls. We might understand one another better if we accepted that whatever story we've come up with the explain things, naturalistic or supernaturalistic, we are at heart all dealing with the same set of issues. Much like Democrats and Republicans, the metaphysics is just an accident of birth and influences -- our hardware and software all encounter the same intractable conditions.

I would alter them slightly:

1. Life is hard.
2. Your life is not primarily about you.
3. Nobody is in control.
4. Nothing is that important.
5. You are going to die.

[Timothy A]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

No offense, but citing the source to prove the veracity of the source is not exactly going to convert anyone over.

I just site the source in case anyone is compelled to look deeper into the context. Plus I was a history major in college, I'm used to siting my sources. I highly doubt I will convert anyone in this site (holding out hope for Kelper ), it's more of an exercise to push me deeper into my Faith.

[Timothy A]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Frankly, I don't get why that line from the Bible is even there. If you have Faith, you're going to believe anyway. If you don't, that line isn't going to sway anyone.

What line are you referring to?

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

What line are you referring to?

2 Peter 1:19-21

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

What line are you referring to?

He's talking about the guy yelling down from the ceiling vents telling those people that God is real and that bearded guy in the corner is His child born of non-consensual sex.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I just site the source in case anyone is compelled to look deeper into the context. Plus I was a history major in college, I'm used to siting my sources. I highly doubt I will convert anyone in this site (holding out hope for Kelper ), it's more of an exercise to push me deeper into my Faith.

I'll give the Bible this: you can't understand anything in western literature or art from 400-1900 without knowing your Bible stories. I wish I was at least minimally competent at Biblical literacy.

I took this Bible Test and got only 61%: http://www.quizrocket.com/online-bible-quiz

[joecct]

He's talking about the guy yelling down from the ceiling vents telling those people that God is real and that bearded guy in the corner is His child born of non-consensual sex.

Fiat voluntas tua.

She consented.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Fiat voluntas tua.

She consented.

Yup.

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

For with God nothing shall be impossible.

And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.