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Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

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  • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post
    Of all the dumb conspiracy theories, this one's the dumbest. You're going to apply cui bono in this situation and not look at the energy companies and industrial sectors who have a vested interest in the status quo?

    This is Philip Morris saying the scientists are lying about cancer, and you're buying it.

    Confronted by compelling peer-reviewed scientific evidence of the harms of smoking, the tobacco industry, beginning in the 1950s, used sophisticated public relations approaches to undermine and distort the emerging science.

    The industry campaign worked to create a scientific controversy through a program that depended on the creation of industry–academic conflicts of interest. This strategy of producing scientific uncertainty undercut public health efforts and regulatory interventions designed to reduce the harms of smoking.

    A number of industries have subsequently followed this approach to disrupting normative science. Claims of scientific uncertainty and lack of proof also lead to the assertion of individual responsibility for industrially produced health risks.

    ...

    Hill offered the companies powerful advice and guidance as they faced their crisis. Hill understood that simply denying emerging scientific facts would be a losing game. This would not only smack of self-interest but also ally the companies with ignorance in an age of technological and scientific hegemony. So he proposed seizing and controlling science rather than avoiding it. If science posed the principal—even terminal—threat to the industry, Hill advised that the companies should now associate themselves as great supporters of science. The companies, in his view, should embrace a sophisticated scientific discourse; they should demand more science, not less.

    Of critical importance, Hill argued, they should declare the positive value of scientific skepticism of science itself. Knowledge, Hill understood, was hard won and uncertain, and there would always be skeptics. What better strategy than to identify, solicit, support, and amplify the views of skeptics of the causal relationship between smoking and disease? Moreover, the liberal disbursement of tobacco industry research funding to academic scientists could draw new skeptics into the fold. The goal, according to Hill, would be to build and broadcast a major scientific controversy. The public must get the message that the issue of the health effects of smoking remains an open question. Doubt, uncertainty, and the truism that there is more to know would become the industry's collective new mantra.
    Get it yet?!
    Last edited by Kepler; 12-16-2016, 01:57 PM.
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    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

      Kep, the science is there. It says Londoners used to skate on the Thames. It also says CO2 levels on earth have been far higher than they are today.

      Personally, I worry more about the mood and demeanor of that giant fusion reactor eight minutes (at "c" rate) away. We're headed toward a very low cyclic solar minima.

      Are we soiling our own nest? It's what we humans do. We need to work on that while maintaining or improving the quality of life here for all.

      That said, I believe humanity is much better equipped for a warming planet than a cooling planet and (call me heathen) I believe the cooling is more likely and would be far, far more devastating to life on this swirling rock.
      Last edited by The Sicatoka; 12-16-2016, 02:25 PM.
      The preceding post may contain trigger words and is not safe-space approved. <-- Virtue signaling.

      North Dakota Hockey:

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      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

        Originally posted by Kepler View Post
        You may be surprised by this, but I agree with you. The whole idea of Catholicism is grounding meaning in an absolute:



        If you begin to allow for the grey areas of human life, there is no reason to stick with Catholicism: secular liberalism fits the facts of both physical and social science better and is a far more healthy human environment to grow up and live in.

        Catholicism's Q score would benefit from a wholesale retrenchment into a reactionary 19th century church. It is a snowman that can't stand the sunlight of reason, so retreat from the light.
        Religion has moral boundaries. In terms of Christianity, boundaries are what's laid out by Jesus (i.e., God). And that focuses on the meek inheriting the earth, turning the other cheek and doing what you can for your fellow man. If you're Christian, those tenants are your guideposts. Beyond that, the Word backs relativism as Jesus welcomed everyone regardless of who they were.

        Too many establishments that put themselves between the Word and humanity - as with atheists - try to extend that absolutism beyond the boundaries designated by Jesus/God in the scriptures. Each side has reasons for doing so.
        Go Gophers!

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        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

          Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
          Religion has moral boundaries. In terms of Christianity, boundaries are what's laid out by Jesus (i.e., God). And that focuses on the meek inheriting the earth, turning the other cheek and doing what you can for your fellow man. If you're Christian, those tenants are your guideposts. Beyond that, the Word backs relativism as Jesus welcomed everyone regardless of who they were.

          Too many establishments that put themselves between the Word and humanity - as with atheists - try to extend that absolutism beyond the boundaries designated by Jesus/God in the scriptures. Each side has reasons for doing so.
          I don't understand your second paragraph, but it feels like something important is there, could you restate it for me please?

          In your first paragraph, my impression is that religion maps each of our actions to a moral space. I'd analogize a function that maps from one Cartesian space to another. Would not it then be more accurate to describe religion not as having moral "boundaries," but as being a method of determining the moral "value" of an action, and hence by extension all the comparative relations we can derive from that: how to choose the preferable action, etc.?

          I must say I really like that image, particularly as it allows religion to be compared to other moral schema. It even allows for the idea that there is not just one possible world -- different mappings are available (which makes sense since each mapping comes from man's self-reflection on his own actions). People can live harmoniously with one another despite having different mappings, provide they understand each other. This is how pluralistic societies function: we put all the stuff that can't be different for different people into a special basket called "law," and the rest of the stuff we let people follow their conscience. The idea should be to try to keep the law basket as empty as possible in order to maximize individual freedom of conscience.
          Last edited by Kepler; 12-16-2016, 04:27 PM.
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          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            I don't understand your second paragraph, could you restate it?
            Will try. It seems to me that many churches, political organizations and other organizations with some stake in religion extend absolutism to areas not put forth by Jesus/God yet attribute that to Him anyways. This has the outcome desired by the organization of making the religion a larger part in adherent's lives than was proposed by Jesus. This in turn provides the delivering interim organization additional benefits. Its the medieval catholic model brought into the 21st century. Opponents of religion often seize on this in order to discredit the underlying religion in broad strokes. In the end, all the debate really doesn't have much to do with the core of Christian doctrine and innocent individuals miss the opportunity offered by the tool box for the debate that's going on outside of the Word.
            Go Gophers!

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            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

              Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
              Will try. It seems to me that many churches, political organizations and other organizations with some stake in religion extend absolutism to areas not put forth by Jesus/God yet attribute that to Him anyways. This has the outcome desired by the organization of making the religion a larger part in adherent's lives than was proposed by Jesus. This in turn provides the delivering interim organization additional benefits. Its the medieval catholic model brought into the 21st century. Opponents of religion often seize on this in order to discredit the underlying religion in broad strokes. In the end, all the debate really doesn't have much to do with the core of Christian doctrine and innocent individuals miss the opportunity offered by the tool box for the debate that's going on outside of the Word.
              I understand and agree. Thank you.

              Do you concur that tracing religion back to a non-supernatural human invention is not to be "against" religion per se? Just as to be a religious believer is not to be against atheism, per se?
              Cornell University
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              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                An appreciation of Thomas Oden. I've never read him, but it looks like I may pick up a tome or two.

                https://www.firstthings.com/web-excl...ng-thomas-oden

                Of course, being a Lutheran, the author never considers the possibility of Purgatory.
                CCT '77 & '78
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                ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                - Benjamin Franklin

                Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  I understand and agree. Thank you.

                  Do you concur that tracing religion back to a non-supernatural human invention is not to be "against" religion per se? Just as to be a religious believer is not to be against atheism, per se?
                  Yes, in theory. Do keep in mind that 'religion' is the human side of God. And God has been around longer than human invention.

                  While I'm not quite a literalist...Abraham is the story of a guy who was influenced by God quite a ways back. In fact, this study puts him at Early Bronze Age/Early Dynastic Period - concurrent with Egyptian Old Kingdoms and Ur https://answersingenesis.org/bible-t...t-mesopotamia/. And although its one of the first interventions to pass down til today, its unlikely it was the first. The broader point is that outside of ceremonial burial, which is really not a core part of morality, much of our moral conventions have come from periods of which there was already divine intervention.

                  One might say 'yeah, well the Greeks and Romans had this compassion thing already nailed'. Not so sure about that either. As Thomas Szasz says in Cruel Compassion 'Greek and Roman philosophers distrusted (feeling) compassion. In their view, reason alone was the proper guide to conduct. They regarded compassion (a virtue) as an effect, neither admirable nor contemptible.' Really a nonfactor. To sum, the Greeks and in other ways the Romans were indispensable to modern society...yet so was Jesus/God to show those Greeks and Romans what was 'right'.
                  Go Gophers!

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                  • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                    Johnny, take a dive with your sister in the rain
                    Let her talk about the things you can't explain
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                    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                      Religion doesn't do good things, people do good things*.

                      Discuss.


                      *look, if the NRA is allowed to boil it down to this level, so can I.

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                      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                        The Pagans are proving to be a smart bunch. They're letting the Christians take the laboring oar in War Against Christmas Battle, and it's not even their holiday.

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                        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                          Originally posted by The Sicatoka View Post

                          That said, I believe humanity is much better equipped for a warming planet than a cooling planet and (call me heathen) I believe the cooling is more likely and would be far, far more devastating to life on this swirling rock.
                          If enough ice melts to disrupt the North Atlantic Current then devastating cooling could be a reality for people in Europe. I live at about the same latitude as Southern France, but while they have palm trees I woke up to single digit temps today.

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                          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                            Originally posted by burd View Post
                            The Pagans are proving to be a smart bunch. They're letting the Christians take the laboring oar...
                            Not really true. Pagans labor with propaganda daily and apply it with the broadest brush possible - see this thread for evidence. The rest of this post is not in response to you specifically, but

                            Regarding Christmas...

                            http://www.topi*****/forum/city/shel...MOQVA787LH0J2C

                            Was thinking further in this post election season:

                            As I mentioned previously, Atheism really offers nothing of substance...its really an ideology of 'no'. It offers no self help tool box. It offers no moral guidance at all. The two atheist claims are 1) none of these benefits are important and 2) they are really just about science. Both are largely false. In the end, who are they as a couple percent to tell society whether Christianity is a good tool for folks or not?

                            This ideology of 'no' coming from a minority mirrors the theory behind a Trump presidency. The outcome of his promises and his cabinet is primarily to threaten healthy government and tech. And what is set to replace it? Nothing. Some see the above as negative statements. But they're really grounded in simple fact. Atheism is really just ignored by Christians, but its an interesting case study when the light is shown on it.
                            Go Gophers!

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                            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                              Originally posted by 5mn_Major View Post
                              Not really true. Pagans labor with propaganda daily and apply it with the broadest brush possible - see this thread for evidence...
                              Who's pro-pagan in this thread? I've not read one tree or goat worshipping post anywhere.
                              "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                              "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                              "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                                Originally posted by BassAle View Post
                                If enough ice melts to disrupt the North Atlantic Current then devastating cooling could be a reality for people in Europe. I live at about the same latitude as Southern France, but while they have palm trees I woke up to single digit temps today.
                                My family in Scotland are already seeing sustained changes in their weather (sig colder, change in precipitation) over the last 5-7 yrs related to the change in the current. 10" snow in May in the lower Highlands


                                Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                                Who's pro-pagan in this thread? I've not read one tree or goat worshipping post anywhere.
                                I love my Christmas tree?

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