Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Christ hasn't been in Christianity for a long time. Maybe back when I was back in Sunday school, so maybe the early 90s.

Most people will probably day a lot longer, but I feel like evangelical movement has removed more Christ from Christianity than anything else in my lifetime.

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Dave Allen on the 1st day of (Catholic) school. Stay to the end. I was in stitches.

https://youtu.be/jxo81Ok9Urk

[FreshFish]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Interesting findings; I heard about them awhile ago but just got around to researching it now.

We've known for awhile that many people unconsciously carry around inside themselves a set of self-perceptions that influences how they interact with other people and the world around them. I'm not posting a link for this because it seems to have been so thoroughly researched. We also know that people can adjust these unconscious self-perceptions by repeating a different message daily, either by posting it on their mirror or other prominent place, or by repeating it to themselves over and over. Among other things, this method seems to be fundamental in the successful treatment of addictions.

One might also interpret this information to say that there is a scientific basis for prayer, no? In the sense that the prayer itself is a way of changing a person's unconscious self-perception, not necessarily as a method of inducing divine intervention.


Also, for Catholics, it turns out that saying the Rosary is not all that different than some other forms of meditation.

According to a study published in the British Medical Journal (2001;323:1446-1449), researcher Dr. Luciano Bernardi, associate professor of internal medicine at the University of Pavia in Italy and his team tested whether rhythmic chanting, in this case reciting the rosary or using Yoga mantras, could have a favorable effect on the heart’s rhythms. What the team knew at the beginning of the study was that slow regular breathing was beneficial in preventing heart disease by synchronizing inherent cardiovascular rhythms.....It ends up that despite the cultural differences between the two spiritual practices, rosary chants and yoga mantras, Dr. Bernardi suggests that the two may have similar origins and both evolved as a simple way to slow respiration, improve concentration, and induce calm. The rosary while known to be related to the Catholic religion, was initially introduced by the Crusaders “who learnt a similar technique from the Arabs who in turn learned it from the Indian and Tibetan masters of yoga”, Dr. Bernardi states.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Interesting findings; I heard about them awhile ago but just got around to researching it now.

We've known for awhile that many people unconsciously carry around inside themselves a set of self-perceptions that influences how they interact with other people and the world around them. I'm not posting a link for this because it seems to have been so thoroughly researched. We also know that people can adjust these unconscious self-perceptions by repeating a different message daily, either by posting it on their mirror or other prominent place, or by repeating it to themselves over and over. Among other things, this method seems to be fundamental in the successful treatment of addictions.

One might also interpret this information to say that there is a scientific basis for prayer, no?

No.

There are placebo effects throughout psychology and while this could be one of them there actually is no consensus on whether the self-hypnosis you are describing actually has real world measurable effect. It is essentially "neuro-linguistic programming," also known as "mesmerism for MBAs."

About the most one can say for your thesis is what Crash Davis did.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Dave Allen on the 1st day of (Catholic) school. Stay to the end. I was in stitches.

https://youtu.be/jxo81Ok9Urk

That was very good.

More: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYXenjpefNU

[FreshFish]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

there actually is no consensus on whether the self-hypnosis you are describing actually has real world measurable effect.

"consensus" is not the same as "evidence."

According to Psychology Today, for example,

Some proponents of affirmations claim that, when practiced deliberately and regularly, they reinforce a chemical pathway in the brain, making the connection between two neurons stronger, and therefore more likely to conduct the same message again.

What does recent research say?

Published in PLOS ONE, new research from Carnegie Mellon University provides the first evidence that self-affirmation can protect against the damaging effects of stress on problem-solving performance. [emphasis added] Understanding that self-affirmation -- the process of identifying and focusing on one's most important values -- boosts stressed individuals' problem-solving abilities will help guide future research and the development of educational interventions.

"An emerging set of published studies suggest that a brief self-affirmation activity at the beginning of a school term can boost academic grade-point averages in underperforming kids at the end of the semester. This new work suggests a mechanism for these studies, showing self-affirmation effects on actual problem-solving performance under pressure," said J. David Creswell, assistant professor of psychology in CMU's Dietrich College of Humanities and Social Sciences.
....
New research published in Psychological Science, a journal of the Association for Psychological Science, explores the neurophysiological reactions that could explain how self-affirmation helps us deal with threats to our self-integrity....

According to Legault, "Practitioners who are interested in using self-affirmation as an intervention tactic in academic and social programming might be interested to know that the strategy produces measurable neurophysiological effects." [emphasis added]
....
So what can we learn from all this? Two things--first, just engaging in positive affirmations by themselves, can do harm to people with low self-esteem, and provide only little benefit for those with high-esteem, if those affirmations are not part of a comprehensive program of self-growth.[emphases added]

Are you seriously going to argue that prayer is not part of a "comprehensive program of self-growth"?

or perhaps you merely replied glibly to your superficial first impression, without absorbing what I actually did say?

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

the usual

The very article you are quoting says there is no consensus on the effect you're trying to insinuate. For that matter, you could make an identical argument about voodoo dolls, rally caps, or wearing women's underwear while pitching.

But you're right, I was being glib because you were doing your usual little dance of loading superficial goo with the possible weight of profundity (hey, you're only asking the question...), so I'll be serious and maybe you will follow suit for the first time.

Mental processes are natural phenomena subsiding in the physical substrate of the nervous system, the brain, the sense organs just like "impressions" (or whichever the second one in Locke's pairing is -- I think it goes sense --> impression, but anyway, the "shadow" you pass internally after translation from an initial physical sense). My Thought -- more strongly, My Will -- is to my body what light is to an incandescent bulb. And it is precisely because there is nothing that is not material that there is no "ghost in the machine," whether you want to call that soul or Cartesian mind or The Great Spirit or some Jungian bullsh-t.

So the question is can you induce physiological changes from "mental" changes by running the experiment "backwards." Let's posit a simple analogy: thought :: magnetic field; body :: physical apparatus; electrical current :: sensory data. Well if the analogy holds, yes you should be able to induce in either direction (which is why this analogy was chosen).

As to whether it can be done in the controlled, replicable manner that results in Farraday's laws, I think that's a very interesting direction of experimental research and I recommend it to the youngins among us. It might indeed explain the hallucinations that typically accompany mysticism. Set up a closed system where repeating a nonsense phrase creates a physiological effect that triggers a hallucination. Believe in the invisible man long enough and you could feel your stigmata.

So my less glib response is... sure, why not?

[St. Clown]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

The very article you are quoting says there is no consensus on the effect you're trying to insinuate. For that matter, you could make an identical argument about voodoo dolls, rally caps, or wearing women's underwear while pitching.

So you're saying that never helped?

Now someone feels like a fool who'd been duped yet again.

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

So you're saying that never helped?

Now someone feels like a fool who'd been duped yet again.

Worked for Schilling.

(Where'd you think the blood came from?)

[joecct]

Worked for Schilling.

(Where'd you think the blood came from?)

The baseball version of the stigmata.

It worked 2x, didn't it?

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Beware, the irony in this story could dislocate your shoulder.

[joecct]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Beware, the irony in this story could dislocate your shoulder.

I always told my kids that Santa is as real as you want him to be. I always say "Hi" to Santa at the malls. I'm not crushing a kid's dreams (I'm also hedging my bets).

[5mn_Major]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

Doesn't matter if you don't care about presents (or if you're not nice).

[leswp1]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

We always said Santa was so happy about Jesus' birth he wanted others to be happy and celebrated by giving things to little kids. Saint Nick is a SAINT after all and the first gift giving was an act of charity

[Kepler]

Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

I always told my kids that Santa is as real as you want him to be. I always say "Hi" to Santa at the malls. I'm not crushing a kid's dreams (I'm also hedging my bets).

This is a good solution for a lot of things.

The Romans had the right idea. Whenever you meet a new people and they have new gods, you just add them to the panoply. The people who insist their god is the only one you smile patiently, add them to the panoply, and flag their file that they're not mature enough to play well with others yet.