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  • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
    I have asked a number of people and have not gotten an answer I can understand. How does the Catholic Church explain praying to various Saints (Mary included) and sidelining God? I wonder how they ever got this past the first group they told it was necessary. The Commandment- thou shall have no other Gods before me would seem to say pray to GOD, not pray to others.
    You are asking for intercession with God from the saint. God is the only one with the power, but you're sucking up to one of his homies to get some help. My understanding (in a very much not dogma-approved way) is that while you are addressing the prayer to the saint it's more of a manner of addressing the envelop, "psst, pass this on to the big guy the next time you see him, eh?"

    Anyway, it's not at all having multiple deities. The deity is still unitary and universal, in God. Even when you talk about the sanctity of the saints, all the godhood is just a reflection of God.

    tl,; dr: A saint is a moon, deity is illumination. So while the moon "shines," that is by the reflected light of the sun, the one true source of light.

    joe, how'd I do?
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    • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

      But why, if God is all powerful, forgiving and loves all His children, would there be a for a middle-man to intercede? That is what I don't get. Would love to know the reason for the thought process that initially started to separate the supplicant from a direct relationship with God. God is smart enough to get it for Himself. All the say a prayer to Saint X, publish that it was successful stuff. This isn't what Jesus was saying so I know it is a Dogma/doctrine thingy. DId they initially have the priest say it for them? Off to Google to see if I can find the answer

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      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

        Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
        But why, if God is all powerful, forgiving and loves all His children, would there be a for a middle-man to intercede? That is what I don't get. Would love to know the reason for the thought process that initially started to separate the supplicant from a direct relationship with God. God is smart enough to get it for Himself. All the say a prayer to Saint X, publish that it was successful stuff. This isn't what Jesus was saying so I know it is a Dogma/doctrine thingy. DId they initially have the priest say it for them? Off to Google to see if I can find the answer
        How else do you build a kingdom for God on Earth if not by creating people who are chosen by God to leave His flock... to tithe their pay to His bank account?
        "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

        "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

        "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

          http://rightreason.org/2015/when-did...to-the-saints/ This guy asked the question but didn't really answer me
          http://www.desiringgod.org/interview...s-pray-to-mary
          https://www.gotquestions.org/prayer-saints-Mary.html and http://ewtn.com/faith/teachings/maryc4.htm Pick and chose which one of the quotes is right.

          and how can you go wrong with the BBC? http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religi...inmary_1.shtml

          So interesting to read different viewpoints assuming they are right (all sides).

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          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

            Timmy: Mom, does God ever change his mind?
            Mom: No, Timmy, God is very wise and has a plan for everybody.
            Timmy: Doesn't that make praying pointless then?
            Mom:...
            "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

            "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

            "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

            Comment


            • Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
              But why, if God is all powerful, forgiving and loves all His children, would there be a for a middle-man to intercede? That is what I don't get. Would love to know the reason for the thought process that initially started to separate the supplicant from a direct relationship with God. God is smart enough to get it for Himself. All the say a prayer to Saint X, publish that it was successful stuff. This isn't what Jesus was saying so I know it is a Dogma/doctrine thingy. DId they initially have the priest say it for them? Off to Google to see if I can find the answer
              What does God need with a starship meme.jpg

              Comment


              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                Originally posted by leswp1 View Post
                But why, if God is all powerful, forgiving and loves all His children, would there be a for a middle-man to intercede?
                Because it's easier for many of the faithful to approach someone closer to their level. While some people are comfortable praying to God, for others that's too much and too awe-inspiring. God is DOS. The saints are macOS.

                Historically, the cult of the saints was (1) a way to co-opt veneration of local gods, and (2) a way to leverage inspirational figures as they came along. Christianity has a big problem: evangelical monotheism works like a cancer. The idea of a hyper-aggressive exclusionary ideology is an alien concept for many (most?) cultures, and Christianity is a very aggressive, globally-expansionist ideology. In the past, imperial religions were syncretic -- when they moved into a new area they added the local deities to the pantheon. Polytheism can do this, monotheism can't.

                So how do you appeal to people who have been praying to their local gods for millenia? Sometimes you play the authoritarian card: "your god wasn't real or he would have stopped our god." That works with Podunk gods, but when you get to major gods like Thor the locals will just laugh at you and pray in secret. Because you're a monotheist this makes you crazy jealous, so you burn some of them at the stake but you also develop local color saints to give people a way to at the very least save face.
                Last edited by Kepler; 04-12-2017, 08:09 AM.
                Cornell University
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                • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  Because it's easier for many of the faithful to approach someone closer to their level. While some people are comfortable praying to God, for others that's too much and too awe-inspiring. God is DOS. The saints are macOS.

                  Historically, the cult of the saints was (1) a way to co-opt veneration of local gods, and (2) a way to leverage inspirational figures as they came along. Christianity has a big problem: evangelical monotheism works like a cancer. The idea of a hyper-aggressive exclusionary ideology is an alien concept for many (most?) cultures, and Christianity is a very aggressive, globally-expansionist ideology. In the past, imperial religions were syncretic -- when they moved into a new area they added the local deities to the pantheon. Polytheism can do this, monotheism can't.

                  So how do you appeal to people who have been praying to their local gods for millenia? Sometimes you play the authoritarian card: "your god wasn't real or he would have stopped our god." That works with Podunk gods, but when you get to major gods like Thor the locals will just laugh at you and pray in secret. Because you're a monotheist this makes you crazy jealous, so you burn some of them at the stake but you also develop local color saints to give people a way to at the very least save face.

                  Another analogy is that of a President in charge of everything, and Cabinet ministers in charge of a specific Department. They still answer to The Boss, and they also supervise their specialty.

                  Lose something? You could pray to the Deity, or you could ask St. Anthony for help finding it.

                  Want safe travels? You could pray to the Deity, or you could ask St. Christopher for protection.
                  "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                  "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                  "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                  "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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                  • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                    Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                    Another analogy is that of a President in charge of everything, and Cabinet ministers in charge of a specific Department. They still answer to The Boss, and they also supervise their specialty.

                    Lose something? You could pray to the Deity, or you could ask St. Anthony for help finding it.

                    Want safe travels? You could pray to the Deity, or you could ask St. Christopher for protection.
                    Yes, I like your analogy much better than mine. Executive authority still only comes from the president. Very nice.

                    I'd like some country to try an elected state religion. A theocratic state, but every four years the people go to the polls and can change who's in the Oval Cloud. This would be an extremely healthy way to remind people that gods were invented to serve men, not the other way around.
                    Cornell University
                    National Champion 1967, 1970
                    ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                    Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                    • Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                      Yes, I like your analogy much better than mine. Executive authority still only comes from the president. Very nice.

                      I'd like some country to try an elected state religion. A theocratic state, but every four years the people go to the polls and can change who's in the Oval Cloud. This would be an extremely healthy way to remind people that gods were invented to serve men, not the other way around.
                      England. I'd vote for the Anglican Ordnariate, not the CoE or the RCC (yes the Ordnariate is subject to Rome, but the RC bishops are treating it like the ugly stepkid).
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                      - Benjamin Franklin

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                      I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                      • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                        The least surprising story you'll read today.
                        Cornell University
                        National Champion 1967, 1970
                        ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                        Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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                        • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                          Just a head's up before people issue blanket disparagement for all "Christian fundamentalists," a substantial number are black and Hispanic.....
                          "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

                          "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

                          "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

                          "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

                          Comment


                          • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                            Originally posted by FreshFish View Post
                            Just a head's up before people issue blanket disparagement for all "Christian fundamentalists," a substantial number are black and Hispanic.....
                            Why would that stop us from disparaging them?

                            Racist.

                            Also, you forgot the Asians. They're as nutty as any of the others.
                            Last edited by Kepler; 04-12-2017, 04:46 PM.
                            Cornell University
                            National Champion 1967, 1970
                            ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                            Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                            Comment


                            • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              Because it's easier for many of the faithful to approach someone closer to their level. While some people are comfortable praying to God, for others that's too much and too awe-inspiring. God is DOS. The saints are macOS.

                              Historically, the cult of the saints was (1) a way to co-opt veneration of local gods, and (2) a way to leverage inspirational figures as they came along. Christianity has a big problem: evangelical monotheism works like a cancer. The idea of a hyper-aggressive exclusionary ideology is an alien concept for many (most?) cultures, and Christianity is a very aggressive, globally-expansionist ideology. In the past, imperial religions were syncretic -- when they moved into a new area they added the local deities to the pantheon. Polytheism can do this, monotheism can't.

                              So how do you appeal to people who have been praying to their local gods for millenia? Sometimes you play the authoritarian card: "your god wasn't real or he would have stopped our god." That works with Podunk gods, but when you get to major gods like Thor the locals will just laugh at you and pray in secret. Because you're a monotheist this makes you crazy jealous, so you burn some of them at the stake but you also develop local color saints to give people a way to at the very least save face.
                              Hmmm. That sounds interesting. I read a bunch of different views the other night. You can never quite extinguish a Unitatian, comparative religion upbringing. Read the fundi- they are going to Hell because they do this!1!1!1!!! Then the RC- there is Biblical support- which was completely baffling- no idea how they figure it is supporting and of course 'Doctrine' to support (followed by all sorts of circular logic that makes me think of my Logic prof going off about correct support of argument). Then the scholarly dialogue thing (my favorite). I still wonder how the purists were convinced to go a long. Doesn't seem as if there was any real evidence until Charlemagne went with Christianity as 'the' religion which sould support the co-opting thing.

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                              • Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

                                I can understand the middle man being closer to the person so less scary but it is fascinating how God when from a loving God to a vindictive scary one- esp in the Medieval times. When I was in Grad school one of our classes split us up by religion/ethnicity. We had to come up with description of God and answer questions. The diff b/w the Irish, French and Italian Catholic views on God were wild.

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