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Thread: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

  1. #741
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    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    But why, if God is all powerful, forgiving and loves all His children, would there be a for a middle-man to intercede? That is what I don't get. Would love to know the reason for the thought process that initially started to separate the supplicant from a direct relationship with God. God is smart enough to get it for Himself. All the say a prayer to Saint X, publish that it was successful stuff. This isn't what Jesus was saying so I know it is a Dogma/doctrine thingy. DId they initially have the priest say it for them? Off to Google to see if I can find the answer
    What does God need with a starship meme.jpg

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by leswp1 View Post
    But why, if God is all powerful, forgiving and loves all His children, would there be a for a middle-man to intercede?
    Because it's easier for many of the faithful to approach someone closer to their level. While some people are comfortable praying to God, for others that's too much and too awe-inspiring. God is DOS. The saints are macOS.

    Historically, the cult of the saints was (1) a way to co-opt veneration of local gods, and (2) a way to leverage inspirational figures as they came along. Christianity has a big problem: evangelical monotheism works like a cancer. The idea of a hyper-aggressive exclusionary ideology is an alien concept for many (most?) cultures, and Christianity is a very aggressive, globally-expansionist ideology. In the past, imperial religions were syncretic -- when they moved into a new area they added the local deities to the pantheon. Polytheism can do this, monotheism can't.

    So how do you appeal to people who have been praying to their local gods for millenia? Sometimes you play the authoritarian card: "your god wasn't real or he would have stopped our god." That works with Podunk gods, but when you get to major gods like Thor the locals will just laugh at you and pray in secret. Because you're a monotheist this makes you crazy jealous, so you burn some of them at the stake but you also develop local color saints to give people a way to at the very least save face.
    Last edited by Kepler; 04-12-2017 at 09:09 AM.
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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Because it's easier for many of the faithful to approach someone closer to their level. While some people are comfortable praying to God, for others that's too much and too awe-inspiring. God is DOS. The saints are macOS.

    Historically, the cult of the saints was (1) a way to co-opt veneration of local gods, and (2) a way to leverage inspirational figures as they came along. Christianity has a big problem: evangelical monotheism works like a cancer. The idea of a hyper-aggressive exclusionary ideology is an alien concept for many (most?) cultures, and Christianity is a very aggressive, globally-expansionist ideology. In the past, imperial religions were syncretic -- when they moved into a new area they added the local deities to the pantheon. Polytheism can do this, monotheism can't.

    So how do you appeal to people who have been praying to their local gods for millenia? Sometimes you play the authoritarian card: "your god wasn't real or he would have stopped our god." That works with Podunk gods, but when you get to major gods like Thor the locals will just laugh at you and pray in secret. Because you're a monotheist this makes you crazy jealous, so you burn some of them at the stake but you also develop local color saints to give people a way to at the very least save face.

    Another analogy is that of a President in charge of everything, and Cabinet ministers in charge of a specific Department. They still answer to The Boss, and they also supervise their specialty.

    Lose something? You could pray to the Deity, or you could ask St. Anthony for help finding it.

    Want safe travels? You could pray to the Deity, or you could ask St. Christopher for protection.
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Another analogy is that of a President in charge of everything, and Cabinet ministers in charge of a specific Department. They still answer to The Boss, and they also supervise their specialty.

    Lose something? You could pray to the Deity, or you could ask St. Anthony for help finding it.

    Want safe travels? You could pray to the Deity, or you could ask St. Christopher for protection.
    Yes, I like your analogy much better than mine. Executive authority still only comes from the president. Very nice.

    I'd like some country to try an elected state religion. A theocratic state, but every four years the people go to the polls and can change who's in the Oval Cloud. This would be an extremely healthy way to remind people that gods were invented to serve men, not the other way around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Yes, I like your analogy much better than mine. Executive authority still only comes from the president. Very nice.

    I'd like some country to try an elected state religion. A theocratic state, but every four years the people go to the polls and can change who's in the Oval Cloud. This would be an extremely healthy way to remind people that gods were invented to serve men, not the other way around.
    England. I'd vote for the Anglican Ordnariate, not the CoE or the RCC (yes the Ordnariate is subject to Rome, but the RC bishops are treating it like the ugly stepkid).

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    The least surprising story you'll read today.
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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Just a head's up before people issue blanket disparagement for all "Christian fundamentalists," a substantial number are black and Hispanic.....
    "Hope is a good thing; maybe the best of things."

    "Beer is a sign that God loves us and wants us to be happy." -- Benjamin Franklin

    "Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy." -- W. B. Yeats

    "People generally are most impatient with those flaws in others about which they are most ashamed of in themselves." - folk wisdom

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by FreshFish View Post
    Just a head's up before people issue blanket disparagement for all "Christian fundamentalists," a substantial number are black and Hispanic.....
    Why would that stop us from disparaging them?

    Racist.

    Also, you forgot the Asians. They're as nutty as any of the others.
    Last edited by Kepler; 04-12-2017 at 05:46 PM.
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  9. #749
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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    Because it's easier for many of the faithful to approach someone closer to their level. While some people are comfortable praying to God, for others that's too much and too awe-inspiring. God is DOS. The saints are macOS.

    Historically, the cult of the saints was (1) a way to co-opt veneration of local gods, and (2) a way to leverage inspirational figures as they came along. Christianity has a big problem: evangelical monotheism works like a cancer. The idea of a hyper-aggressive exclusionary ideology is an alien concept for many (most?) cultures, and Christianity is a very aggressive, globally-expansionist ideology. In the past, imperial religions were syncretic -- when they moved into a new area they added the local deities to the pantheon. Polytheism can do this, monotheism can't.

    So how do you appeal to people who have been praying to their local gods for millenia? Sometimes you play the authoritarian card: "your god wasn't real or he would have stopped our god." That works with Podunk gods, but when you get to major gods like Thor the locals will just laugh at you and pray in secret. Because you're a monotheist this makes you crazy jealous, so you burn some of them at the stake but you also develop local color saints to give people a way to at the very least save face.
    Hmmm. That sounds interesting. I read a bunch of different views the other night. You can never quite extinguish a Unitatian, comparative religion upbringing. Read the fundi- they are going to Hell because they do this!1!1!1!!! Then the RC- there is Biblical support- which was completely baffling- no idea how they figure it is supporting and of course 'Doctrine' to support (followed by all sorts of circular logic that makes me think of my Logic prof going off about correct support of argument). Then the scholarly dialogue thing (my favorite). I still wonder how the purists were convinced to go a long. Doesn't seem as if there was any real evidence until Charlemagne went with Christianity as 'the' religion which sould support the co-opting thing.

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    I can understand the middle man being closer to the person so less scary but it is fascinating how God when from a loving God to a vindictive scary one- esp in the Medieval times. When I was in Grad school one of our classes split us up by religion/ethnicity. We had to come up with description of God and answer questions. The diff b/w the Irish, French and Italian Catholic views on God were wild.

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    2016 USCHO POSER OF THE YEAR

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Happy Easter!

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    So if Jesus dies on a Friday, and rose three days later, why is Sunday considered a religious holiday rather than Monday?
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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Oh look everyone, Foxton's back

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by St. Clown View Post
    So if Jesus dies on a Friday, and rose three days later, why is Sunday considered a religious holiday rather than Monday?
    It's not three days later. It's "on the third day."
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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    So how do you appeal to people who have been praying to their local gods for millenia? Sometimes you play the authoritarian card: "your god wasn't real or he would have stopped our god." That works with Podunk gods, but when you get to major gods like Thor the locals will just laugh at you and pray in secret. Because you're a monotheist this makes you crazy jealous, so you burn some of them at the stake but you also develop local color saints to give people a way to at the very least save face.
    Thank you for giving Thor the status he deserves. There are more doubters that you'd think.

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Ben Hur is on TCM

    Trivia note - Great great granpappy fought under Gen. Wallace at the Battle of Monocacy as a member of the 14th New Jersey.

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by joecct View Post
    Ben Hur is on TCM

    Trivia note - Great great granpappy fought under Gen. Wallace at the Battle of Monocacy as a member of the 14th New Jersey.
    8 miles from where I'm sitting. The battlefield is now memorialized with a Golden Coral at the FSK Mall.
    2016 USCHO POSER OF THE YEAR

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler View Post
    8 miles from where I'm sitting. The battlefield is now memorialized with a Golden Coral at the FSK Mall.
    The monument to the 14th NJ is still there. GG pappy was present at the dedication. He also was at Appomattox when the war ended.

    If you stop at the visitor center, I believe part of the battlefield (it was yuge!) is preserved.

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    Re: Religion Thread: That's Me In the Corner...

    Quote Originally Posted by dxmnkd316 View Post
    Oh look everyone, Foxton's back
    It was a serious question. Whenever I hear the story told, he was killed and three days later he's risen. That would make it Monday, not Sunday. It looks like there's a different version, based upon what Kepler wrote.
    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

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