USA Hockey National Championships

[WJHL]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

It is only in 10 games. That is pathetic and Michigan Hockey or USA Hockey needs to take a good look into Michigan.

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Your "facts" are largely "shooting from the hip" wrongness.

1. You are misinformed (to use your verbage). In MA (by FAR the largest girls public high school hockey state in NE), there IS an in-season rule for public high school hockey - if a player misses a high school practice/game for a club event, the high school team forfeits the game, no excuses. Girls public high school hockey in NH, ME, VT, and CT is very poor quality. MA and RI are better but still not at a club/prep level - there are many girls on club teams (usually Tier 2) that play public HS hockey - but they rarely go onto college hockey (certainly not the % that go on to play from preps.

2. You are misinformed here also. As others have noted, club teams don't play through high/prep school season in New England at the U16 and U19 level (they do at the U14 level as someone noted) except for a Christmas tournament. I got that from coaching girls club hockey in NE and having kids go through club programs for a period of 10 years. I know a darn sight more about it then you ever will.

3. Again - misinformed (or in this case misread). At no point did I write that choosing prep school has nothing to do with playing hockey. For hockey players it has a lot to do with it and the prep and club systems are indeed intertwined. What I wrote was that the players are generally better off academically at the prep school than the most local public high schools. You seem really bitter your kids left home for prep school - but that was your/their choice, not forced on you - they could have opted to stay home. I would look at it as they had an opportunity to do what they loved and were able to pursue it - good for them!

You're right that the prep school system can be somewhat exclusionary (1 for 4 - you're an average major leaguer). Generally, there are 3 tiers of players - SED, middle class, and upper mid to upper class. SED usually pay little or nothing to go to prep school, mid to upper class usually can afford it. The folks in the middle are the ones that need to make the choice - is the cost (supplemented by some financial aid) worth the opportunity? Personal choice. Also, for many years girls hockey was one of the fastest growing youth sports in the US - so I don't know why you think it is growing at a snails pace.

So so so wrong. 0 for 3 in fact.

1. Wrong. MA allows kids to double roster. MN doesn't. That's the point. You came up with the game conflict rule... that's a subset of the rule that allows MA players to double roster. In other words, you are proving my point that MA doesn't follow the MN model.

2. You are 1000000000% wrong. There are club teams that practice and play throughout Nov, Dec, Jan and Feb. Do you want me to send you my daughters 19U schedule from this past season to prove it? In fact, her Club team had a practice the same week as high school playoffs. I'm guessing you haven't had a kid in high school for awhile.

3. Bitter that my kids had a prep experience? Not a chance. But you completely miss the point, and I'm not going to make my point again and again for you.

[PuckRush]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Abby Roque uses a model similar to MA/MN. She plays for a club team from Labor Day until November. She then plays for her HS (boys). Unfortunately you can not be double rostered in MI, and all rosters can not be changed after December 31 of that season - so once she plays in a game with her HS after Jan 1, she can no longer go back to club for states and nationals. MAHA and MHSAA do not cooperate well, it is a shame that some of the best MI players are prevented from qualifying for states/nationals. More and more are leaving MI to play at Shattuck, NAHA, or Prep schools out East.

You are 100% hitting at the heart of the problem. USA Hockey makes it difficult for kids NOT to abandon their high schools.

Again, hockey is the only sport I know of where the high school season and the club season are the SAME season.

[joecct]

You are 100% hitting at the heart of the problem. USA Hockey makes it difficult for kids NOT to abandon their high schools.

Again, hockey is the only sport I know of where the high school season and the club season are the SAME season.

Soccer (at least here in MD - fall sport).

IIRC MA (MIAA) rules say HS comes first and all conflicts must be resolved in favor of the HS. Violate it and your HS season is toast.

[jumbodaddy77]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

I thought you were brainstorming, but you really think this summer idea is a winner. Here's the thing: (1) what we all think should happen and (2) what is actually going to happen, are not the same. In terms of (1) I think there should be thousands of girls playing HS hockey in every state and that every girl should have the chance to play in a MN HS state playoff system. I also think that thousands of girls should get to go to private HS and play in front of no one while getting a world class education and the chance to also play AAA hockey. Problem is (2) club hockey is not going away and is not moving to summer to facilitate (1).

You make the claim that soccer is a good example that bolsters your argument. Not so much. With USA soccer, you have to join an academy and agree not to play HS soccer to participate. Like the USNDP, HS sports are not an option. With girls/women in MI, no serious soccer player would play in HS. They are too busy flying around to major tournaments and playing for US Soccer. I wish I knew more about volleyball and basketball, but I'll bet you $1 that there are two systems (1) a club based system for future superstars and superstar want to bees, and (2) a HS system (that also produces plenty of superstars but not ones likely to play for the CT women's BB team).

If anything, the MN system will feel more pressure in the future. That's too bad, but the Shattucks, USHLs, OS, Machines, and O/WHLSs are only going to increase in the future. They are not likely to wait until the summer so the HS leagues can thrive.

[pokechecker]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

I thought you were brainstorming, but you really think this summer idea is a winner. Here's the thing: (1) what we all think should happen and (2) what is actually going to happen, are not the same. In terms of (1) I think there should be thousands of girls playing HS hockey in every state and that every girl should have the chance to play in a MN HS state playoff system. I also think that thousands of girls should get to go to private HS and play in front of no one while getting a world class education and the chance to also play AAA hockey. Problem is (2) club hockey is not going away and is not moving to summer to facilitate (1).

You make the claim that soccer is a good example that bolsters your argument. Not so much. With USA soccer, you have to join an academy and agree not to play HS soccer to participate. Like the USNDP, HS sports are not an option. With girls/women in MI, no serious soccer player would play in HS. They are too busy flying around to major tournaments and playing for US Soccer. I wish I knew more about volleyball and basketball, but I'll bet you $1 that there are two systems (1) a club based system for future superstars and superstar want to bees, and (2) a HS system (that also produces plenty of superstars but not ones likely to play for the CT women's BB team).

If anything, the MN system will feel more pressure in the future. That's too bad, but the Shattucks, USHLs, OS, Machines, and O/WHLSs are only going to increase in the future. They are not likely to wait until the summer so the HS leagues can thrive.

that is true, the boys already have that problem, although I wouldn't say it threatens the HS system, but who knows what the future may hold

I don't know about elsewhere, but in MN the girls HS volleyball plays in the fall, then immediately after is the JO/club season

I haven't had a kid in HS sports in over 15 years, but from what I know all club type teams for every sport plays outside the HS season

the thing is, in MN the HS system has existed for a long time, before anybody realized there was big money to be made off HS sports. When I played, at least at our school, you didn't skate until after fall sports were over at the first practice, once the season was over you put away your skates and got out your baseball glove. There were no skating schools or teams outside of your HS. Although come to think of it occasionally somebody would rent some ice time, get on the phone and round up people to play (we each threw in 2 or 3 bucks), but it was all kids, no coaches, in fact it would have made us inelligible to play if a coach was there or organized it.

[giwan]

You make the claim that soccer is a good example that bolsters your argument. Not so much. With USA soccer, you have to join an academy and agree not to play HS soccer to participate. Like the USNDP, HS sports are not an option. With girls/women in MI, no serious soccer player would play in HS. They are too busy flying around to major tournaments and playing for US Soccer. I wish I knew more about volleyball and basketball, but I'll bet you $1 that there are two systems (1) a club based system for future superstars and superstar want to bees, and (2) a HS system (that also produces plenty of superstars but not ones likely to play for the CT women's BB team).

Soccer, bball, and volleyball are truly summer sports for those looking to use them as a vehicle for college.

[Leather helmet]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

that is true, the boys already have that problem, although I wouldn't say it threatens the HS system, but who knows what the future may hold

I don't know about elsewhere, but in MN the girls HS volleyball plays in the fall, then immediately after is the JO/club season

I haven't had a kid in HS sports in over 15 years, but from what I know all club type teams for every sport plays outside the HS season

the thing is, in MN the HS system has existed for a long time, before anybody realized there was big money to be made off HS sports. When I played, at least at our school, you didn't skate until after fall sports were over at the first practice, once the season was over you put away your skates and got out your baseball glove. There were no skating schools or teams outside of your HS. Although come to think of it occasionally somebody would rent some ice time, get on the phone and round up people to play (we each threw in 2 or 3 bucks), but it was all kids, no coaches, in fact it would have made us inelligible to play if a coach was there or organized it.

The Minnesota system is under assault on the boy's side, and it is a matter of time before the same is true for the girls. About a third of American-born women playing Div 1 hockey come from Minnesota, but if you look at the national team rosters or the All American teams, nothing close to a third are coming from Minnesota. The Minnesota system is great for producing large numbers of very good players, but is not great for producing elite players. Elite players are coming from, you guessed it, the Tier 1 programs. The national teams are as likely to have California and Illinois players as they are to have Minnesota players.

What will eventually kill the Minnesota system is the fact that a high percentage of 14-year-old players have parents. As Tier 1 programs get their foot in the door, the parents of elite players will get together with the parents of other elite players to get embroidered jackets and complain about cost of travel, while the high school programs will be left without the top level of talent.

[D2D]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

The Minnesota system is great for producing large numbers of very good players, but is not great for producing elite players.

So what you're saying is that the 16 players from Minnesota who helped the USA win gold at the IIHF Under-18 Women's World Championship are not elite? And on the men's side 4 of the 6 goals scored yesterday against Sweden in the U18 Worlds were Minnesota high school players. How all these players managed to make their national teams without being "elite" is one big mystery.

[pokechecker]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

The Minnesota system is under assault on the boy's side, and it is a matter of time before the same is true for the girls. About a third of American-born women playing Div 1 hockey come from Minnesota, but if you look at the national team rosters or the All American teams, nothing close to a third are coming from Minnesota. The Minnesota system is great for producing large numbers of very good players, but is not great for producing elite players. Elite players are coming from, you guessed it, the Tier 1 programs. The national teams are as likely to have California and Illinois players as they are to have Minnesota players.

What will eventually kill the Minnesota system is the fact that a high percentage of 14-year-old players have parents. As Tier 1 programs get their foot in the door, the parents of elite players will get together with the parents of other elite players to get embroidered jackets and complain about cost of travel, while the high school programs will be left without the top level of talent.

that is true, and probably will be true

but your comment on "elite" players
using AA status as a measure isn't exactly isn't a definitive one IMO, it is a beauty contest
I'd say getting to the last 5 finals and winning four of them is a better measure

"what will eventually kill"
as long as kids are getting D1 scholarships by going thu HS, they will continue that path
and judging by the number of scholarships being grabbed by MN HS kids, I don't see it happening anytime soon

[Eeyore]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

So what you're saying is that the 16 players from Minnesota who helped the USA win gold at the IIHF Under-18 Women's World Championship are not elite?

In fairness, that's not anything close to one-third.

[Call It]

The Minnesota system is under assault on the boy's side, and it is a matter of time before the same is true for the girls. About a third of American-born women playing Div 1 hockey come from Minnesota, but if you look at the national team rosters or the All American teams, nothing close to a third are coming from Minnesota. The Minnesota system is great for producing large numbers of very good players, but is not great for producing elite players. Elite players are coming from, you guessed it, the Tier 1 programs. The national teams are as likely to have California and Illinois players as they are to have Minnesota players.

What will eventually kill the Minnesota system is the fact that a high percentage of 14-year-old players have parents. As Tier 1 programs get their foot in the door, the parents of elite players will get together with the parents of other elite players to get embroidered jackets and complain about cost of travel, while the high school programs will be left without the top level of talent.

MN boys hockey is under assault because USA Hockey has no interest in seeing it flourish. They receive no registration money from the players and it keeps kids from playing in the USHL or NTDP. I think it's just a matter of time before the girls game will be under assault. One thing going for a very large majority for the girls from MN is that they really don't want to travel all the time for hockey. And for the parents... It comes down to the cost.

[D2D]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

In fairness, that's not anything close to one-third.

16 on one team is more than two-thirds.

[SconniePuck]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

Interesting article from a neutral source

http://www.sbncollegehockey.com/wome...racie-ostertag

[ARM]

Re: USA Hockey National Championships

16 on one team is more than two-thirds.

Yes, but it isn't that close to one third, which was the original statement.