UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

[NCAA watcher]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Trying to close the loop, I think we all are in agreement on the facts of the current situation. We can argue about the peripheral edges of just how in demand the current recruits are, and we can argue about the details of Souza's recruiting connections and bona fides, but on both fronts the defense is hardly rousing. My take away-- one that I came to mid-year after some outsider input -- is that Souza's strength is not as a recruiter. It is as an on-ice coach.

So, recognizing this likely state of events, we have a team with (1) a HC who has very little interest, and little incentive, to recruit guys who will not play for him, (2) an assistant Stewart, who seems to have been marginalized, and (3) an assistant whose strength does not lie in recruiting.
I guess the lack of results is not surprising when viewed against this.

That then leaves the situation that is challenging. I see four possible moves forward:
1) If the status quo remains for two years, as is the plan, Mike Souza will take over a team with very, very little talent. That is hardly a recipe for longer term success, no matter how quickly he learns on the job.
2) Bring in someone who has a strength as a recruiter, and who is comfortable with Souza. This makes the most sense, though I don't mean this as a slight for Stewart, who seems never to have been in a good position to succeed.
3) Umile does the right thing and eliminates the limbo, which a) helps Souza's credibiity and puts him in the job that is his strength, and b) allows Souza to hire a recruiter/friend (see (2), above).
4) Scarano can re-evaluate the whole situation, and in two years deviate from the plan, as they had built in a slight hedge about success. That would be unfair to all involved in Marty's original briliant succession plan, and would be a tacit admission of failure.

Seeing the above four options, I don't see 3 or 4 being reasonable paths, given the people involved.

[Snively65]

I will add one thing here. It is a huge misconception that players go thru their coaches in juniors on the recruiting front. They could care less what junior coaches think. They make their decision with their parents and know all about the schools before they are recruited. Chances of a player going to one school vs another based on a push by a USHL or BCHL coach is zero, zero. They might push a walk in to a certain program, even than maybe. Any too 3 and mist 4th line types are recruited directly by the colleges. Internet, profile events make virtually all recruits available and few hidden gems

That does not [edit] sound entirely correct to me, as I know that I have read several of Mike's interviews in which kids who have come to UNH did so with encouragement from their coaches in juniors.

[Hokydad]

That does sound entirely correct to me, as I know that I have read several of Mike's interviews in which kids who have come to UNH did so with encouragement from their coaches in juniors.

Maybe, junior coaches want people to think they sway power, laughable. Families could care less what they think. Might play along or show obvious respect but these kids know the teams very well and know where they would like to go. Also when one shows strong interest or makes an offer, that gets out and others who might have less urgency tend to escalate their efforts
Not a diss on junior coaches but these kids at this age think about it 24/7 and the families know that coaches have conflicts because of old friendships etc and will push a kid or try to, towards a team with a pal
Junior coaches might go thru 159 kids in a 5 year period

[Chuck Murray]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I haven't accused you of making anything up - I've simply done some research that indicates the anecdotal evidence (which could have easily been innocently misinterpreted any number of ways) that you have heard may not be correct. Unless you think Cavanaugh is lying about how he discovered the Minnesota recruits, that certainly seems to be the case here.

Knowing how this guy has handled his business over a long stretch of time, I vote "exaggerating" instead of "lying". If you asked Luce, he'd probably tell you he invented the Internet, and went to school with Al & Tipper.

Maybe, junior coaches want people to think they sway power, laughable. Families could care less what they think. Might play along or show obvious respect but these kids know the teams very well and know where they would like to go. Also when one shows strong interest or makes an offer, that gets out and others who might have less urgency tend to escalate their efforts
Not a diss on junior coaches but these kids at this age think about it 24/7 and the families know that coaches have conflicts because of old friendships etc and will push a kid or try to, towards a team with a pal
Junior coaches might go thru 159 kids in a 5 year period

hoky nailed it here. Wide gap between perception and reality, and the perception most coaches want is self-serving. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but nowadays recruits have far more independence and control over their decisions.

Trying to close the loop, I think we all are in agreement on the facts of the current situation. We can argue about the peripheral edges of just how in demand the current recruits are, and we can argue about the details of Souza's recruiting connections and bona fides, but on both fronts the defense is hardly rousing. My take away-- one that I came to mid-year after some outsider input -- is that Souza's strength is not as a recruiter. It is as an on-ice coach.

So, recognizing this likely state of events, we have a team with (1) a HC who has very little interest, and little incentive, to recruit guys who will not play for him, (2) an assistant Stewart, who seems to have been marginalized, and (3) an assistant whose strength does not lie in recruiting.

I guess the lack of results is not surprising when viewed against this.

That then leaves the situation that is challenging. I see four possible moves forward:
1) If the status quo remains for two years, as is the plan, Mike Souza will take over a team with very, very little talent. That is hardly a recipe for longer term success, no matter how quickly he learns on the job.
2) Bring in someone who has a strength as a recruiter, and who is comfortable with Souza. This makes the most sense, though I don't mean this as a slight for Stewart, who seems never to have been in a good position to succeed.
3) Umile does the right thing and eliminates the limbo, which a) helps Souza's credibiity and puts him in the job that is his strength, and b) allows Souza to hire a recruiter/friend (see (2), above).
4) Scarano can re-evaluate the whole situation, and in two years deviate from the plan, as they had built in a slight hedge about success. That would be unfair to all involved in Marty's original briliant succession plan, and would be a tacit admission of failure.

Seeing the above four options, I don't see 3 or 4 being reasonable paths, given the people involved.

As usual, 'Watcher boils it all down to the salient points, and outlines the options. #4 will never happen (even less likely than #3), so I'm hoping for #3 against all the odds, but don't see that happening unless/until there is another poor season on ice like the one we just got finished up with.

I still think it's going to be the guy (?) after the guy (Souza) after the guy (Umile) who will have the best chance to turn this around. Sit tight for another 5 seasons in the lower end of HE, fellow UNH fans.

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Knowing how this guy has handled his business over a long stretch of time, I vote "exaggerating" instead of "lying". If you asked Luce, he'd probably tell you he invented the Internet, and went to school with Al & Tipper.



hoky nailed it here. Wide gap between perception and reality, and the perception most coaches want is self-serving. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but nowadays recruits have far more independence and control over their decisions.



As usual, 'Watcher boils it all down to the salient points, and outlines the options. #4 will never happen (even less likely than #3), so I'm hoping for #3 against all the odds, but don't see that happening unless/until there is another poor season on ice like the one we just got finished up with.

I still think it's going to be the guy (?) after the guy (Souza) after the guy (Umile) who will have the best chance to turn this around. Sit tight for another 5 seasons in the lower end of HE, fellow UNH fans.

Sigh...at least I'll hopefully be retired from teaching by then! Hey I have learned a lot over the posts and it seems to me that what stands out most from those of us with 'skin in the game' that is, fans of UNH (no disrespect Hoky as your input is valuable as well on the decision making of recruits) is that we honestly do care about the team, want to see it succeed, and feel frustration at the process of getting UNH back to its once former winning ways. That said, Chuck, you don't see Souza as the one who will be able to get this ball rolling; is it because you think he won't get his chance and will be frustrated/leave? I'd like to think he knew exactly what he was getting into, and is/was given a lot of latitude when it comes to bringing in his own guys for his future. When that future actually starts to show up, is what gives cause of concern since it's been slow in coming...

I dunno Toto...I don't think we are in Kansas anymore...the landscape is ever changing. And speaking of changing landscape I'd be interested to know how many STH UNH gains next year, against non-renewals? Looking forward to see what incentives they give to keep people in the seats, esp. those who have declared enough is enough...

[Hokydad]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Agreed and of course everyone cares. Everyone though has different reasons. Coaches have ego, money, status etc, players are their pawns
Junior coaches have same agenda but add in the fact they tend to look at program as a stepping stone, not all but many. D1 coaches are smart and know pro coaches are hired to be fired, period, look at Quinville in Chicago. Shocking that he barely now has job security. Julian was hoisted on everyone's shoulders two weeks ago, giving notice on his lease today. It takes an act of Congress or a fifth of Jack Daniels to lose a D1 job

Parent, that's a whole other story... They are still the key advocate for Their kids and are in charge pretty much until dropped off at campus. Advisors are insane.... Nothing junior/colleges want to do less is talk to one who has zero interest in what is best for team. Couldn't fathom dealing with some of the BC and BU advisors every Monday morning...

For years, you could count on some things. A politician getting caught cheating on his wife, a stupid reality show, Red Six choking and for a long while, the big four heading to the Garden. I hope that comes back, loved Me, UNH, BC and BU, that never few old...

[Snively65]

Sigh...at least I'll hopefully be retired from teaching by then! Hey I have learned a lot over the posts and it seems to me that what stands out most from those of us with 'skin in the game' that is, fans of UNH (no disrespect Hoky as your input is valuable as well on the decision making of recruits) is that we honestly do care about the team, want to see it succeed, and feel frustration at the process of getting UNH back to its once former winning ways. That said, Chuck, you don't see Souza as the one who will be able to get this ball rolling; is it because you think he won't get his chance and will be frustrated/leave? I'd like to think he knew exactly what he was getting into, and is/was given a lot of latitude when it comes to bringing in his own guys for his future. When that future actually starts to show up, is what gives cause of concern since it's been slow in coming...

I dunno Toto...I don't think we are in Kansas anymore...the landscape is ever changing. And speaking of changing landscape I'd be interested to know how many STH UNH gains next year, against non-renewals? Looking forward to see what incentives they give to keep people in the seats, esp. those who have declared enough is enough...

If I am reading the last 2-3 pages correctly, the consensus is that MS is not a good or experienced recruiter, and he is a better on-ice coach, but what we really need right now is anyone who can recruit a couple of high-end, puck-moving D-men, and until that happens, our team is going nowhere.

[E.J. Smith]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Agreed and of course everyone cares. Everyone though has different reasons. Coaches have ego, money, status etc, players are their pawns
Junior coaches have same agenda but add in the fact they tend to look at program as a stepping stone, not all but many. D1 coaches are smart and know pro coaches are hired to be fired, period, look at Quinville in Chicago. Shocking that he barely now has job security. Julian was hoisted on everyone's shoulders two weeks ago, giving notice on his lease today. It takes an act of Congress or a fifth of Jack Daniels to lose a D1 job

Parent, that's a whole other story... They are still the key advocate for Their kids and are in charge pretty much until dropped off at campus. Advisors are insane.... Nothing junior/colleges want to do less is talk to one who has zero interest in what is best for team. Couldn't fathom dealing with some of the BC and BU advisors every Monday morning...

For years, you could count on some things. A politician getting caught cheating on his wife, a stupid reality show, Red Six choking and for a long while, the big four heading to the Garden. I hope that comes back, loved Me, UNH, BC and BU, that never few old...

Agreed on the advisors, and you pay a pretty penny for that insanity, but I'd be interested in knowing more about what you think of them.

Edit to add:

I’m far from an expert on family advisors but here’s what I think I know.

They’re freaking expensive. In my travels, I’ve heard anywhere from $2,000 - $10,000 to become a client. Depending on who the advisor is, how long they’ve been in business. And if your kid is good, they want him more, but that’s balanced by how much money they think you have and how much they think they can get out of you. Let’s just say it’s fluid.

Another factor is where along the way you’re bringing in an advisor. Trying to get into juniors? Trying to get from juniors to D1? D1 to pro? It might make more or less sense depending on where you are in the process.

My feeling is an advisor makes less sense if you’re going Prep. It’s unlikely you’re going to be looking to change schools, where you might be looking to change programs if you go the Jr. route. My feeling there though is if you’re paying $10K+ per year for U16 or U18 hockey, your coach ought to be an advisor, or the organization should have a full-time advisor on staff. Which I get, their loyalty is going to be to the person signing their paycheck, which isn’t you, but still…

All in all I think advisors are sort of a luxury, or a status symbol. I think the route can be negotiated without them, especially if you do what you can to find a decent guy for a prep or Jr. coach.

But I’d love to hear other’s opinions.

[e.cat]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

Question for you recruiting gurus;

Are there any deadlines for recruits to adhere to regarding committing to a program for the upcoming season? When should we expect to see any action on signings? Do the kids have to sign an LOI? How binding are these commitments?

Okay, let me clarify and expound! I know kids can go to a program midseason a la Tirone a couple of years ago and I know kids are committing to programs at much younger ages these days. There must be guidelines on this stuff. Can UNH realistically expect to get a high profile recruit for next year at this late stage? Fans seem to be clamoring for the next first round NHL'er but at this point is that even realistic?

Please enlighten this mere mortal!!

[Nifty16]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

If you were trying to encourage a discussion, editing your post to include a snipe about my "puff pieces'" wasn't the best way to go about it.
Watcher asked me some fair questions and he did so with respect. I'm happy to engage in a discussion with anyone who extends a modest level of respect.

I for one enjoy your post and blog. Has always had some good insight, and I don't remember you ever saying you are an investigated journalist. As far as I know you don't get paid to do any of what you do, do it for fun and your passion for UNH Hockey, not sure how anyone can go on a board about UNH hockey and fault you for that. I thank you for what you do

[HockeyRef]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I for one enjoy your post and blog. Has always had some good insight, and I don't remember you ever saying you are an investigated journalist. As far as I know you don't get paid to do any of what you do, do it for fun and your passion for UNH Hockey, not sure how anyone can go on a board about UNH hockey and fault you for that. I thank you for what you do

+1

Same...many here (and at the 'Whitt) echo your sentiments about Mike and his blog. I hope he continues to bring his well thought out posts to this board, and always look forward to info on UNH recruits.

[e.cat]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I for one enjoy your post and blog. Has always had some good insight, and I don't remember you ever saying you are an investigated journalist. As far as I know you don't get paid to do any of what you do, do it for fun and your passion for UNH Hockey, not sure how anyone can go on a board about UNH hockey and fault you for that. I thank you for what you do

+2

Mike does a great job and spends a lot of time on it and his credibility is second to none!

[Hokydad]

Re: UNH Commits & Recruiting: 2016 and Beyond

I don't believe that Souza is not a good recruiter. I would guess and for a fact, know that the players like and respect him
The buzz though is that kids don't want to go there. To many rumors about hostility towards freshmen and not getting ice time. I remember watching Agosta and the other D, kid drafted by Philly, seeing them pace around in suits talking to parents and advisors, all flustered. To many quirky things you hear kids repeating about UNH.
The program's sell themselves. Was Cavanaugh a better recruiter at BC? Nope, but most don't want to go to u conn

[Snively65]

+2

Mike does a great job and spends a lot of time on it and his credibility is second to none!

+3

We like Mike! (I remember this phrase from when Mike Greenwell patrolled left field for the Red Sox. We would yell to him from the left field stands, "Hey, Mike, you wanna join us for a beer after the game?" And, he would flash us the thumbs up!

But, back to our Mike, he even contributed something positive to our Bentley thread, which needs all the positive contributions that we can get these days. :-)

[Dan]

Well, I guess I'm the bad guy today. So, I apologize to Mike for attacking his blog. It's noble of him to spend the time congregating all of the information people don't have the time to find themselves and the recruiting updates and interviews are much appreciated. It is certainly your prerogative to make the blog as positive as you wish and kudos to you for your ability to stay positive through all that is happening currently. I wish I had that ability.

The rest I stand by 100%. If what you contribute to this board is information from anonymous sources and you expect everyone to take why you say as fact it is ridiculous to attack and lecture other posters for doing the same. Watcher, Bomber, hoky, Chuck and others have many sources. I have many connections. If I post something and indicate it is factual it IS factual to the best of my knowledge. Whether it's what you want to hear or not.

If someone has additional information that can supplement or correct what I have reported - I welcome it. I certainly won't assume someone is attacking my integrity and attack them I return. I have no use for condescension insinuating that who I heard from is not as valuable as the sources of others and I need to classify it for the benefit of the board. Especially since when I do decide to share information I have often not only heard from a friend regrading that information but posted research that backs up my opinion.

Yesterday's altercation started when I simply posted an article that contradicted a source. I assume that since he did not like or agree with what I said earlier he thought t was an attack. It was not. It was just clarifying information.

It is a fact, as I know it from many resources, that Cavanaugh is heavily involved in talent identification and takes the lead on closing at Uconn. It is a fact that he recruited nine Minnesota players to BC since 2000, include two from Benilde St Margarats. I thought people would welcome that information to the discussion, including CHC. But he took offense. Disagreements are fine, but I won't be talked down to...