Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

[Drew S.]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

How do you guys think Jack Ruby fits in?

[Kepler]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

So, is it your claim that LHO was the lone gunman, but acting at the behest of the CIA?

I'm perfectly happy with that explanation. Other gunmen are like God -- "my theory does not require that hypothesis." And it explains why Oswald has to go. If Oswald is a crazy guy who kills Kennedy for his own personal reasons there is no reason to tie him up as a loose end.

[Kepler]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

How do you guys think Jack Ruby fits in?

In my case Ruby shuts Oswald up. I can't speak for anybody else.

[Drew S.]

In my case Ruby shuts Oswald up. I can't speak for anybody else.

Do you think it was just dumb luck he shot Oswald or was he contracted by another group?

[Kepler]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

Do you think it was just dumb luck he shot Oswald or was he contracted by another group?

Ruby is insurance. I doubt he knows who he's working for since that would just create another loose end. At that point I think we're just into subcontractors.

[SJHovey]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

I'm perfectly happy with that explanation. Other gunmen are like God -- "my theory does not require that hypothesis." And it explains why Oswald has to go. If Oswald is a crazy guy who kills Kennedy for his own personal reasons there is no reason to tie him up as a loose end.

The problem I've always had with this is if the CIA intends to kill Kennedy, why put LHO up to the task? Did pretty much every other skilled assassin/CIA operative/killer for hire turn them down?

Some guy in Des Moines who decides he wants to kill his wife hires a d i p s h i t like LHO while chatting with him in a bar. If you are an agency who apparently is in the business of committing murders of heads of state and getting away with it, you don't hire a drifter like LHO and entrust him with the task, and then leave it up to a pimp to cover your tracks by offing the killer.

[Kepler]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

The problem I've always had with this is if the CIA intends to kill Kennedy, why put LHO up to the task? Did pretty much every other skilled assassin/CIA operative/killer for hire turn them down?

I believe Watchmen covered this.

[solovsfett]

Fine. Pick one then. Who and how? I won't even ask you to explain why they did it.

Allen Dulles at the top. He meets Paulino sierra Martinez in march/April 63, after that meeting Martinez suddenly becomes a wealthy benefactor to anti-Castro groups. Oct 63, Dulles meets with treasury secretary Doug Dillon which may have resulted in Dillon removing secret service protection from dealey plaza.

James Angleton head of counterintelligence who'd monitored Oswald since at least November if 1959 and likely used him for his mole hunt is tasked with orchestrating cover.
Bill Harvey head of ZRRifle (CIA assassination team) is tasked to find the get the shooters. He was seen in Dallas a week prior to 11-22 despite being allegedly on duty at the Rome station at that time.
David Phillips (propagandist, misinformation specialist) and George Joannides (psychological warfare chief from miami) are tasked with sheepdipping oswald as a communist. To that end Joannides manipulates CIA assets the DRE (Cuban student anti-Castro group) into a confrontation with LHO and green lights their calls to radio and tv people where the DRE tags LHO a communist. Phillips handles the misinformation on oswald's mexco trip.phillips also handles post-assassination misinformation and that was discovered by the HSCA.
It's possible David Morales (operations chief at the psychological warfare branch in Miami) was involved but small group. 6-7 total knew about the extent of the plan.

Harvey died in 1978 and instructed his wife prior to that to destroy all of his files which she did.
Angleton was pushed out in 1974 due to his illegal htlingual program monitoring the mail of thousands of citizens. When CIA officers opened his safe they found autopsy pictures of RFK, and files in both JFK and RFK. They destroyed all of it.

The details are coming out slowly, year after year. It may take 2-5 years just to understand what's in these new documents given cryptonynms and other coded jargon etc

One fact from july's release. Dallas mayor earl cabbel who changed the parade route was a CIA asset.

[Kepler]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

Allen Dulles at the top. He meets Paulino sierra Martinez in march/April 63, after that meeting Martinez suddenly becomes a wealthy benefactor to anti-Castro groups. Oct 63, Dulles meets with treasury secretary Doug Dillon which may have resulted in Dillon removing secret service protection from dealey plaza.

James Angleton head of counterintelligence who'd monitored Oswald since at least November if 1959 and likely used him for his mole hunt is tasked with orchestrating cover.
Bill Harvey head of ZRRifle (CIA assassination team) is tasked to find the get the shooters. He was seen in Dallas a week prior to 11-22 despite being allegedly on duty at the Rome station at that time.
David Phillips (propagandist, misinformation specialist) and George Joannides (psychological warfare chief from miami) are tasked with sheepdipping oswald as a communist. To that end Joannides manipulates CIA assets the DRE (Cuban student anti-Castro group) into a confrontation with LHO and green lights their calls to radio and tv people where the DRE tags LHO a communist. Phillips handles the misinformation on oswald's mexco trip.phillips also handles post-assassination misinformation and that was discovered by the HSCA.
It's possible David Morales (operations chief at the psychological warfare branch in Miami) was involved but small group. 6-7 total knew about the extent of the plan.

Harvey died in 1978 and instructed his wife prior to that to destroy all of his files which she did.
Angleton was pushed out in 1974 due to his illegal htlingual program monitoring the mail of thousands of citizens. When CIA officers opened his safe they found autopsy pictures of RFK, and files in both JFK and RFK. They destroyed all of it.

The details are coming out slowly, year after year. It may take 2-5 years just to understand what's in these new documents given cryptonynms and other coded jargon etc

One fact from july's release. Dallas mayor earl cabbel who changed the parade route was a CIA asset.

I'm just going to let solovsfett handle all of this. He or she knows far more about the mechanics than I do.

I only know generally what everybody who has looked at this knows: everywhere you turn there are agency connections. It is enough that it makes no sense to me to ascribe all that to blind chance. Every person in America in 1963 wasn't a CIA asset, so how come seemingly every person who has been verified to be connected to the assassination even by those who don't believe there was an operation just happens to turn out to be an asset?

[SJHovey]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

I'm just going to let solovsfett handle all of this. He or she knows far more about the mechanics than I do.

I only know generally what everybody who has looked at this knows: everywhere you turn there are agency connections. It is enough that it makes no sense to me to ascribe all that to blind chance. Every person in America in 1963 wasn't a CIA asset, so how come seemingly every person who has been verified to be connected to the assassination even by those who don't believe there was an operation just happens to turn out to be an asset?

But the other problem is that the "connections," once dug into, don't exist or don't exist like claimed. It always turns out something like "CIA operative X was in Mexico City the same day as LHO." Mexico City is a big farking city, and the CIA had/has "assets" in a great many metropolitan areas, both here and abroad, I'm guessing. That's why I don't buy it.

[Kepler]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

But the other problem is that the "connections," once dug into, don't exist or don't exist like claimed. It always turns out something like "CIA operative X was in Mexico City the same day as LHO." Mexico City is a big farking city, and the CIA had/has "assets" in a great many metropolitan areas, both here and abroad, I'm guessing. That's why I don't buy it.

I'd need to see each claim broken down. That is certainly possible, but it hasn't been my reaction.

[SJHovey]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

I'd need to see each claim broken down. That is certainly possible, but it hasn't been my reaction.

I can't in good conscience recommend that anyone read Vincent Bugliosi's book History Reclaimed. It's just too long and tedious. It would be like telling you to go read the Ariel and Will Durant Story of Civilization books because the theories are debunked in there. But it is a valuable book from the standpoint that Bugliosi examined pretty much every single theory that exists and then shoots massive, gaping holes in those theories, or provides the information from others who came before and blew up the theory.

[solovsfett]

Re: Conspiracy Theory Du Jour

And so it begins. Former HSCA counsel Robert Tannenbaum is reporting video evidence of CIA officer David Phillips with Oswald at an anti-castro training camp has disappeared and therefore is not part of today's release. That folks, is criminal.

[solovsfett]

I can't in good conscience recommend that anyone read Vincent Bugliosi's book History Reclaimed. It's just too long and tedious. It would be like telling you to go read the Ariel and Will Durant Story of Civilization books because the theories are debunked in there. But it is a valuable book from the standpoint that Bugliosi examined pretty much every single theory that exists and then shoots massive, gaping holes in those theories, or provides the information from others who came before and blew up the theory.

And he was rebutted point by point by James DiEugenio and others, all pointing to released documents etc.

Bugliosi side stepped much of the CIA proof including and especially demorenschildts babysitting if LHO.
He also ignored ford's moving jfk's back wound and head wound to match specter' theory.

[solovsfett]

But the other problem is that the "connections," once dug into, don't exist or don't exist like claimed. It always turns out something like "CIA operative X was in Mexico City the same day as LHO." Mexico City is a big farking city, and the CIA had/has "assets" in a great many metropolitan areas, both here and abroad, I'm guessing. That's why I don't buy it.

They're professionals of the highest order when it comes to tradecraft, murder, propaganda, psych warfare. That's why it's taken decades to unravel who was behind this. Look, and you'll find David Phillips committing perjury to the HSCA, Angleton perjuring himself earlier at the church committee.

Here are quotes from the men themselves
Angleton to The NY Times "a mansion has many rooms, I don't know who got John"
Morales "we got the sob didn't we! And I was in l.a. When we got the little bastard"
Nixon to DCI Richard Helms "I don't care who shot John"
Nixon to Haldeman "tell Helms hunt knows too **** much. This could blow up the whole bay of pigs thing" haldemn said bay of pigs was code for jfk
The HSCA **** near unraveled the case in less than 2 years. You'll find enough evidence there if you take the time to read it or listen to their investigators