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Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an election

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
    Classic paranoia. Plus the usual if we're a fading minority, how can we be so threatening. Not only paranoid, but consistently paranoid.
    Some of the worst events in history have been committed by fading groups who are struggling to hold on to the last vestiges of their power in the face of demographic changes.

    While Christianity loses its hold on about .5% of the population every year, it is still the majority and will be for at least the next 50 years at a minimum.
    Last edited by unofan; 09-09-2015, 10:06 AM.

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    • #77
      Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

      Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
      It's hardly limited to Christians, Bob. Christians just happen to be the main religious force in this country and therefore the most widely used example. The same holds true for the Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Shintoists, and the venerated Muslims. Once you allow some group's religion to reign over us all, then you've opened Pandora's box and you live in a country that will have the political stability of a Saudi Arabia or Egypt - nations that have been held together by ruling force rather than the political cooperation we have here.
      You are asking Bob to assume that all religions are created equal, he doesnt believe that and never will. He cant see that having God dictate the law of the land will turn out the same no matter whose God it is because to him his is the only God that matters. His God makes no mistakes (you know minus all the mistakes he makes even in the Bible...not unlike our Courts right joe) and comes from a place of love. The heathens dont! That is why Sharia Law is bad, but laws in the name of Jesus good!
      "It's as if the Drumpf Administration is made up of the worst and unfunny parts of the Cleveland Browns, Washington Generals, and the alien Mon-Stars from Space Jam."
      -aparch

      "Scenes in "Empire Strikes Back" that take place on the tundra planet Hoth were shot on the present-day site of Ralph Engelstad Arena."
      -INCH

      Of course I'm a fan of the Vikings. A sick and demented Masochist of a fan, but a fan none the less.
      -ScoobyDoo 12/17/2007

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      • #78
        Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

        We must be very capable if we're a tiny nutbar fringe but we are going to be able to control everyone else. I guess that's what's called a backhanded complement.
        Originally posted by Priceless
        Good to see you're so reasonable.
        Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
        Very well, said.
        Originally posted by Rover
        A fair assessment Bob.

        Comment


        • #79
          Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

          Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
          We must be very capable if we're a tiny nutbar fringe but we are going to be able to control everyone else. I guess that's what's called a backhanded complement.
          Well I'd expect you to be powerful beyond your numbers. You do, after all, have omnipotent backing...

          5mn_Major makes a good point on the other thread: I probably do pound that key too often, which is ironic because a lot of my pleasurable reading revolves around philosophical questions that lend themselves to spiritual, if not religious, contemplation, and/or to the benefits of taking an agnostic view towards all apparent truths and not claiming anything as settled fact.

          I will try not to harp quite so much. I think I probably come across as far more concerned about the deleterious effect of the nutbars than I really am in reality.

          (Not inequality of opportunity, though. On that I really am obsessed. )
          Last edited by Kepler; 09-09-2015, 10:15 AM.
          Cornell University
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          • #80
            Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
            Well I'd expect you to be powerful beyond your numbers. You do, after all, have omnipotent backing...

            5mn_Major makes a good point on the other thread: I probably do pound that key too often, which is ironic because a lot of my pleasurable reading revolves around philosophical questions that lend themselves to spiritual, if not religious, contemplation, and/or to the benefits of taking an agnostic view towards all apparent truths and not claiming anything as settled fact.

            I will try not to harp quite so much. I think I probably come across as far more concerned about the deleterious effect of the nutbars than I really am in reality.

            (Not inequality of opportunity, though. On that I really am obsessed. )
            Fair enough. My guess is if we were sitting across a table at dinner we could have some very fascinating conversations. Internet forums aren't quite as conducive.


            I'll put in a good word for you with my omnipotent backing.
            Originally posted by Priceless
            Good to see you're so reasonable.
            Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
            Very well, said.
            Originally posted by Rover
            A fair assessment Bob.

            Comment


            • #81
              Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

              Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
              I'll put in a good word for you with my omnipotent backing.
              And I'll light a votive candle on your behalf at the next Fête de la Raison.

              But if my sainted, long-suffering Mom's 50+ years of prayers haven't been enough, I'm probably already screwed.
              Cornell University
              National Champion 1967, 1970
              ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
              Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

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              • #82
                Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

                Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                Except I have no paranoia in the least about religion as a whole, or even Christianity as a whole. That's just you cloaking the tiny, nutbar segments which I am (and most people are) concerned about with the much larger body of believers who manage to get through the day without telling others how to live.

                Here's the Cliff Notes version so if you keep making that mistake at least we'll know it's an intentional tactic rather than an honest mistake:

                (1) Believers as a whole who understand that public space is not their ideological property are fine. Their beliefs in the supernatural are factually wrong, but that makes no material difference and hey if it helps them live better lives or face the purposelessness of life, then good for them. Hobbies are good. They should be ribbed, gently, in the spirit of good clean fun. They make up somewhere between 80-90% of all believers. If you are among them, please come in.

                (2) Literalist nutbars who think scripture is inerrant and that the Word of God (whichever) trumps the law are potentially dangerous and deserving of nothing but scorn. Insofar as they only torture themselves and their immediate family, they should be left alone. To the degree that they start metastasizing into a cancer that is capable of attacking others, they should be stopped. There is nothing fun about them. They make up somewhere between 10-20% of all believers. If you are among them, please go away.
                On number two, I think it's a mistake to lump people who think scripture is in some fashion (and there are many difference in understanding of what "inerrant" means) in with people who think the Word of God trumps the law. Those are two very different things and from my perspective do not necessarily go in tandem at all. Most people I know that believe in some form of inerrancy also strongly believe in respecting the laws of the land and would only go against the laws in extreme cases (as would pretty much all people under certain extreme circumstances). To me it's very much a render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and also there are a number of New Testament verses that talk about respecting the governmental leaders who are in place (again excepting extreme circumstances when civil disobedience or such might be called for). Take the example of abortion, where the vast vast majority of those who think abortion is murder are peaceful and condemn the occasional act of violence against an abortion doctor and such.
                Originally posted by Priceless
                Good to see you're so reasonable.
                Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                Very well, said.
                Originally posted by Rover
                A fair assessment Bob.

                Comment


                • #83
                  Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

                  Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                  And I'll light a votive candle on your behalf at the next Fête de la Raison.

                  But if my sainted, long-suffering Mom's 50+ years of prayers haven't been enough, I'm probably already screwed.
                  Time will tell. I'm an optimist.
                  Originally posted by Priceless
                  Good to see you're so reasonable.
                  Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                  Very well, said.
                  Originally posted by Rover
                  A fair assessment Bob.

                  Comment


                  • #84
                    Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

                    Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                    You're making ridiculously extreme assumptions about what Christians think and want in government, with no foundation for doing so. You simply don't understand.
                    No, Bob, you don't understand. Perhaps you're biased in your branch of Christianity that has some semblance of sanity when it comes to running the government, but when I look at things my very vocal, formerly-fallen-Catholic cousin posts to hi wall about wanting the Bible inserted into the federal government and getting a ****-ton of likes from his friends and other family, I'm seeing exactly what I've stated here. And I see other posts made by other cousins that are less vocal, less vociferous even, but still to the same end goal. Perhaps you're not associated with people like that, but I'm unfortunately related to them (coincidentally, the vocal one's also named Bob). While they're good people in most aspects of life, they have potentially destructive ideas when it comes to running the government - and they're not alone, not by a long shot. It's rooted in the belief that their flavor of religion is right while all others are wrong.
                    "The party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." George Orwell, 1984

                    "One does not simply walk into Mordor. Its Black Gates are guarded by more than just Orcs. There is evil there that does not sleep, and the Great Eye is ever watchful. It is a barren wasteland, riddled with fire and ash and dust, the very air you breathe is a poisonous fume." Boromir

                    "Good news! We have a delivery." Professor Farnsworth

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                    • #85
                      Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

                      Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                      On number two, I think it's a mistake to lump people who think scripture is in some fashion (and there are many difference in understanding of what "inerrant" means) in with people who think the Word of God trumps the law. Those are two very different things and from my perspective do not necessarily go in tandem at all.
                      OK, I can accept that correction.

                      It seems that in Christianity any possible logical permutation of beliefs has not only been held but has become an entire sect. One of my favorite periods of church history is the early concilary period, particularly Ephesus and Chalcedon, and the Monophysite - Miaphysite split. <-- please follow that link; it's a cool picture.

                      In any case, I fully accept that virtually any statement about religious doctrine is at some level too general.
                      Cornell University
                      National Champion 1967, 1970
                      ECAC Champion 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1973, 1980, 1986, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2005, 2010
                      Ivy League Champion 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1972, 1973, 1977, 1978, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1996, 1997, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2012, 2014, 2018, 2019, 2020

                      Comment


                      • #86
                        Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

                        Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                        No, Bob, you don't understand. Perhaps you're biased in your branch of Christianity that has some semblance of sanity when it comes to running the government, but when I look at things my very vocal, formerly-fallen-Catholic cousin posts to hi wall about wanting the Bible inserted into the federal government and getting a ****-ton of likes from his friends and other family, I'm seeing exactly what I've stated here. And I see other posts made by other cousins that are less vocal, less vociferous even, but still to the same end goal. Perhaps you're not associated with people like that, but I'm unfortunately related to them (coincidentally, the vocal one's also named Bob). While they're good people in most aspects of life, they have potentially destructive ideas when it comes to running the government - and they're not alone, not by a long shot. It's rooted in the belief that their flavor of religion is right while all others are wrong.
                        Of course he doesn't understand, christians of convenience never want to admit that people like this exist and are in positions of power.

                        https://youtu.be/0l3xX14ZNzk

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                        • #87
                          Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

                          Originally posted by St. Clown View Post
                          No, Bob, you don't understand. Perhaps you're biased in your branch of Christianity that has some semblance of sanity when it comes to running the government, but when I look at things my very vocal, formerly-fallen-Catholic cousin posts to hi wall about wanting the Bible inserted into the federal government and getting a ****-ton of likes from his friends and other family, I'm seeing exactly what I've stated here. And I see other posts made by other cousins that are less vocal, less vociferous even, but still to the same end goal. Perhaps you're not associated with people like that, but I'm unfortunately related to them (coincidentally, the vocal one's also named Bob). While they're good people in most aspects of life, they have potentially destructive ideas when it comes to running the government - and they're not alone, not by a long shot. It's rooted in the belief that their flavor of religion is right while all others are wrong.
                          All depends what you mean by inserting the Bible into government. There are obviously many government programs/policies that are have similarities to values espoused in the Bible. You literally couldn't have a government with policies that make any sense and are at all reasonable without having some parallels with things the Bible says, if for no other reason than the Bible says a whole lot of stuff about a whole lot of things. If it's something like saying the President has to pray to Jesus three times a day or the government has to mandate a ten percent tithe or something, I'm in full agreement that such things are absurd and I know of no one who would advocate such things. My point (which I've made on here more times than I can count over the years) is that everyone comes to the table with a variety of views that they have reached a variety of ways and apart from ones that are way out there (which is most cases we can still come to a consensus on, though not always) it's fair for everyone to advocate (in reasonable ways) that their government reflects their views/values. Anything less is an undermining of our form of government and Constitutional rights.
                          Originally posted by Priceless
                          Good to see you're so reasonable.
                          Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                          Very well, said.
                          Originally posted by Rover
                          A fair assessment Bob.

                          Comment


                          • #88
                            Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

                            Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                            OK, I can accept that correction.

                            It seems that in Christianity any possible logical permutation of beliefs has not only been held but has become an entire sect. One of my favorite periods of church history is the early concilary period, particularly Ephesus and Chalcedon, and the Monophysite - Miaphysite split. <-- please follow that link; it's a cool picture.

                            In any case, I fully accept that virtually any statement about religious doctrine is at some level too general.
                            Not a bad chart. While such charts by necessity don't reflect a lot of the detail of what's gone on, they are nevertheless very helpful in understanding the flow of history.
                            Originally posted by Priceless
                            Good to see you're so reasonable.
                            Originally posted by ScoobyDoo
                            Very well, said.
                            Originally posted by Rover
                            A fair assessment Bob.

                            Comment


                            • #89
                              Re: Campaign 2016 - People lie the most after a hunt, during a war or before an elect

                              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
                              Atheists are probably up to about 20%.
                              It's actually reported as about 10%. You can probably get to 20% if you lump in agnostics, secular humanists, and pantheists.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by Bob Gray View Post
                                ...it's fair for everyone to advocate (in reasonable ways) that their government reflects their views/values. Anything less is an undermining of our form of government and Constitutional rights.
                                You're obviously correct that government suppression of speech would be a violation of civil rights. So - advocate away. Have a ball on every street corner in the country. Don't, however, expect any sympathy or understanding if/when laws that enforce a particular religious tenet are slapped, pardon the expression, 6 ways from Sunday by the courts. That's not oppression - that's freedom from established religion and equal treatment under the Constitution. Allowing religious laws to stand would undermine the Constitution just as surely as suppressing free speech would. You are entitled to advocate for an outcome, but you are not entitled to the outcome. Advocacy groups of all stripes seem to erroneously equate the two - and often, it appears that they do so intentionally as a tactic to claim victimhood to garner support.
                                If you don't change the world today, how can it be any better tomorrow?

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