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  • #76
    Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

    Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
    This is exactly what I was thinking when I read the quotes provided by Kepler. So, we have a handful of brutal, terrible individuals that are keeping a collection of people under their thumb through murder and terror, and included in the collection of suppressed people are groups who are bitter at the U.S. for assisting/facilitating the dictator to remain in power, but that's the choice we should make because it's better to let a thug keep these monkeys in line than opening the cage to the zoo? Doesn't sound like a great solution either way.
    I'm not an advocate of mookie's real politik. I don't believe the US should have sullied its hands by supporting the Shah (or for that matter overthrowing the democratically elected government and installing him in the first place).

    There is a middle ground between propping up dictators and going in guns a blazin'. It has the advantage of (1) not murdering thousands of American troops and hundreds of thousands of innocent people, and (2) ya know, working.

    But it takes a long time and makes it (slightly) harder to sell missiles, and it doesn't further chicken hawks' careers. And of course if you let a democracy develop from inside a country rather than being imposed from outside, those people might pick the wrong democracy.
    Last edited by Kepler; 12-01-2015, 11:36 AM.
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    • #77
      Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

      Originally posted by Kepler View Post
      I'm not an advocate of mookie's real politik. I don't believe the US should have sullied its hands by supporting the Shah (or for that matter overthrowing the democratically elected government and installing him in the first place).

      There is a middle ground between propping up dictators and going in guns a blazin'. It has the advantage of (1) not murdering thousands of American troops and hundreds of thousands of innocent people, and (2) ya know, working.

      But it takes a long time and makes it (slightly) harder to sell missiles, and it doesn't further chicken hawks' careers. And of course if you let a democracy develop from inside a country rather than being imposed from outside, those people might pick the wrong democracy.
      So I assume you would use North Korea as the perfect example?

      The problem is at some point something happens, and with or without our support the dictator simply loses the ability to keep everyone under his thumb, and then you just have a mess. At the end of the day do we feel that much better about ourselves because we let Stalin, Pol Pot, Assad, Hussein and the rest enslave/murder the hundreds of thousands as they line their own pockets?
      That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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      • #78
        Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

        Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
        So I assume you would use North Korea as the perfect example?

        The problem is at some point something happens, and with or without our support the dictator simply loses the ability to keep everyone under his thumb, and then you just have a mess. At the end of the day do we feel that much better about ourselves because we let Stalin, Pol Pot, Assad, Hussein and the rest enslave/murder the hundreds of thousands as they line their own pockets?
        I completely understand the humanitarian issues involved. But don't fool yourself for one second -- we didn't go into Iraq for humanitarian reasons. That was pure window dressing, and the death and chaos that resulted probably hurt far more people in Iraq than we helped.

        We went in for oil. There's a reason Cheney, Condi, and Rumsfeld didn't launch a crusade for regime change to end the terrible abuses of the regimes in Eritrea or Central Africa Republic or Mali or Columbia (an ally!) or Cameroon or Burma or Liberia ('nother ally) or Darfur.

        Charlie don't drill.
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        • #79
          Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

          Originally posted by Kepler View Post
          I completely understand the humanitarian issues involved. But don't fool yourself for one second -- we didn't go into Iraq for humanitarian reasons. That was pure window dressing, and the death and chaos that resulted probably hurt far more people in Iraq than we helped.

          We went in for oil. There's a reason Cheney, Condi, and Rumsfeld didn't launch a crusade for regime change to end the terrible abuses of the regimes in Eritrea or Central Africa Republic or Mali or Columbia (an ally!) or Cameroon or Burma or Liberia ('nother ally) or Darfur.

          Charlie don't drill.
          Sure, but Norway has oil as well and I don't see us invading Bergen. These types of actions have always been as much about opportunity as they have been about doing good.
          That community is already in the process of dissolution where each man begins to eye his neighbor as a possible enemy, where non-conformity with the accepted creed, political as well as religious, is a mark of disaffection; where denunciation, without specification or backing, takes the place of evidence; where orthodoxy chokes freedom of dissent; where faith in the eventual supremacy of reason has become so timid that we dare not enter our convictions in the open lists, to win or lose.

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          • #80
            Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

            Originally posted by SJHovey View Post
            So I assume you would use North Korea as the perfect example?

            The problem is at some point something happens, and with or without our support the dictator simply loses the ability to keep everyone under his thumb, and then you just have a mess. At the end of the day do we feel that much better about ourselves because we let Stalin, Pol Pot, Assad, Hussein and the rest enslave/murder the hundreds of thousands as they line their own pockets?
            Quite frankly, yes. I'm not sure what separates us from that list, unless you want to say we had good intentions. The results have been nothing short of disastrous, and every bit as bad.

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            • #81
              Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

              Originally posted by Kepler View Post
              We went in for oil. There's a reason Cheney, Condi, and Rumsfeld didn't launch a crusade for regime change to end the terrible abuses of the regimes in Eritrea or Central Africa Republic or Mali or Columbia (an ally!) or Cameroon or Burma or Liberia ('nother ally) or Darfur.

              Charlie don't drill.
              What !?!?! We did Iraq 2 over oil? I thought it was the 911 attacks, Al qaeda camps, weapons of mass destruction and that Saddam was a bad bad man.
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              • #82
                Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

                Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                What !?!?! We did Iraq 2 over oil? I thought it was the 911 attacks, Al qaeda camps, weapons of mass destruction and that Saddam was a bad bad man.
                It was for purple fingers. My mistake.

                It's no secret that the Iraqi blog "Iraq The Model" - run by brothers Omar, Mohammed and (till recently) Ali Fadhil - provides US neo-conservatives with a magnificent piece of public relations. The Fadhil brothers say they want to tell the world about all the good things that have been happening in Iraq since the US invasion, and they do so even while ignoring the endless violence, the growing anarchy and the horrific scandals which grab the attention of most other Iraqi bloggers. While the world was being shocked by photos from the Abu Ghraib torture scandal, for example, the Fadhil brothers were earnestly discussing the merits of the new Iraqi flag. Arch neocon Paul Wolfowitz has frequently cited the blog while urging the global media to take a more positive line on events in Iraq. In the lead-up to the 2004 US elections, two of the Fadhil brothers even met with Wolfowitz and George W. Bush in the Oval Office.

                Rampantly pro-war websites regularly link to the blog as proof that ordinary Iraqis love what America is doing in Iraq, despite any number of polls showing that the Fadhil brother's views are totally out of touch with popular Iraqi thought. "Iraq The Model" is not quite the PR equivalent of the rose-petal-strewn streets that neocons once predicted would greet US troops, but it's about as good as it gets for these militant ideologues. Even the name fits snuggly with the neocon mantra that Iraq will soon become a model for other countries in the region.

                If you try posting an anti-Bush or otherwise critical comment on "Iraq The Model", you will immediately be flamed by an aggressive posse of regular visitors. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, these people - many of whom claim to have relatives serving with US forces in Iraq - still believe that Saddam had WMDs and was connected with Al-Quaeda and 9/11. Try proving their fallacies wrong and you will quickly find yourself on the receiving end of a barrage of personal abuse. Try suggesting that "Iraq The Model" could be a CIA front and you will probably be banned within minutes - as I was. Your comments may also be removed, as mine often have been.

                In short, "Iraq The Model" provides an online oasis for people who would rather ignore the harsh facts of daily life in Iraq under US occupation. It's the perfect information cocoon for those who - like neocon leader Douglas Feith - would rather dwell outside the "reality-based community".
                Last edited by Kepler; 12-01-2015, 01:17 PM.
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                • #83
                  Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

                  Germans to send military presence to Middle East.

                  No word on whether they're digging in the wrong place.
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                  • #84
                    Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

                    Originally posted by Timothy A View Post
                    What !?!?! We did Iraq 2 over oil? I thought it was the 911 attacks, Al qaeda camps, weapons of mass destruction and that Saddam was a bad bad man.
                    You ever hear of Halliburton?
                    **NOTE: The misleading post above was brought to you by Reynold's Wrap and American Steeples, makers of Crosses.

                    Originally Posted by dropthatpuck-Scooby's a lost cause.
                    Originally Posted by First Time, Long Time-Always knew you were nothing but a troll.

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                    • #85
                      Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

                      Is it just me? It seems like this ISIS stuff is a huge expensive cluster...

                      Country after country is signing up to fight ISIS and Syria and Syrian rebels. But it seems like there's no coordination (let alone defined set of goals). Maybe just an appearance...
                      Go Gophers!

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                      • #86
                        Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

                        Oh Vlad! Don't ever change!
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                        • #87
                          Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

                          Assuming the Norks aren't bluffing, this is not good news: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-3...e=news_central

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                            Assuming the Norks aren't bluffing, this is not good news: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-3...e=news_central
                            Wonder what Beijing thinks about having another HBomb nation on its borders?
                            CCT '77 & '78
                            4 kids
                            5 grandsons (BCA 7/09, CJA 5/14, JDL 8/14, JFL 6/16, PJL 7/18)
                            1 granddaughter (EML 4/18)

                            ”Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.”
                            - Benjamin Franklin

                            Banned from the St. Lawrence University Facebook page - March 2016 (But I got better).

                            I want to live forever. So far, so good.

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by FadeToBlack&Gold View Post
                              Assuming the Norks aren't bluffing, this is not good news: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-3...e=news_central
                              Which is a huge assumption.

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                              • #90
                                Re: US Foreign Policy: The Wogs Begin at Calais

                                Originally posted by unofan View Post
                                Which is a huge assumption.
                                Probably. And even if they do have a crude H-bomb, who knows if their launch tech is ready yet?

                                I'd be more worried if I were South Korea or Japan.

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