The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

[MissThundercat]

Continue.

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I'd like my royalty checks sent to the Caymans.

[joecct]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

I'd like my royalty checks sent to the Caymans.

My wife and I are planning to visit St. Kitts next year. I could bring a deposit if you want to make the check out to me.

EDIT: There's a bit of a scandal brewing in Hell's Kitchen at the Church of Our Savior. It appears that something is rotten in the Archdiocese of New York, a corporation sole.

Article #1

Article #2

This is the Church in which I was brought into. This is the ideal of the priest.

Priestly Hands
By Fr. John Cihak

An assignment at the Casa Santa Maria offers a priest the opportunity to deepen his priestly identity not so much based on what he does – teaching, sanctifying and governing – but on who he is. One way this identity is deepened comes from the awareness of our hands. Last spring a brother priest came to the Casa to train for the ministry of exorcism in his diocese. He asked me at the breakfast table one morning to accompany him to a church in the city to observe the work of one of Rome’s exorcists. The priest wanted help translating from Italian so that he could better understand the exorcist’s extemporaneous words, and the words being hissed or shouted at him. That morning was an extraordinary experience in which my own priestly identity was deepened. About twenty minutes into the session, the exorcist asked the five priests in the room to raise their hands from a distance in a type of epiclesis and to quietly invoke the Holy Spirit over the victim. The reaction was strong. The demons cursed, writhed, begged, raged, whimpered and threatened. A low, sinister voice cried out again and again, “Get them off! You are burning me!” To the demons the hands of a priest seared as though on fire, yet to the victim those same hands soothed as though still wet from holy chrism. The demons were painfully aware of a reality to which we are often blind: these hands are configured to those of the incarnate Son of God. They are His hands. Our chrismed, burning hands reveal the hidden depths of the priesthood He has given us. They remind us of who we are.

Yet a priest’s hands also remind him of who he is supposed to become for they are also a sinner’s. Though our hands are configured to Jesus’, places in the heart have yet to give their complete Yes to Him. The priest who manfully strives to embrace his calling knows the difficult and often muddling work of subjectively appropriating his objective consecration. This work, as we know, means nothing less than undergoing a death and resurrection, first in the purification of the senses and then in the purification of the spirit. Priestly hands remind us of the need for a more purified priestly heart.

A story from the life of St. Francis of Assisi illustrates how the awareness of a priest’s hands can help bring about a deeper purification in the heart. The saint was close to the end of his life, unable to walk and suffering from an eye disease and the stigmata. As he was brought through a region, some people from a nearby town came to ask for his help with their parish priest. They had discovered that their priest was involved in a scandalous relationship with a woman of that town. The saint was brought to the town and placed before the priest in front of everyone. They thought that the saint would upbraid the fallen priest. St. Francis instead fell to his knees, took the priest’s hands into his own stigmatized hands, kissed them and said, “All I know and all I want to know is that these hands give me Jesus.” It was said that the priest was converted.

An even more incredible story about a purified priestly heart comes from Father John Houghton, the Carthusian monk and prior, and English martyr. He was a graduate of Cambridge, and described as “slight of stature and shy in look”. Refusing to take Henry VIII’s Oath of Supremacy, Father Houghton was sentenced to be hung, drawn and quartered at Tyburn in London on May 4, 1535. After being hung, cut down and allowed to recover his senses, he was eviscerated. The executioner experienced some difficulty in locating Father Houghton’s heart, and when he did so the saint looked at it pulsating in the man’s hand and said, “Sweet Jesus, what will You do with my heart?” One can only imagine Our Lord’s response to him at that moment. His heart and entrails were then thrown into the fire that burned nearby.

Our hands were configured to Jesus’ in ordination. They reveal the hidden depths of our priesthood. These priestly hands remind us of who we are, and who we are supposed to become – a priest whose heart as well as hands are conformed to Jesus.

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

That Rabelaisian drawing is absolutely amazing. First Things knows what it's doing. I should read it more.

Also, that article is brilliant.

Also, Father Robbins' actions, if accurately portrayed, are an abomination. However, I remain an unreconstructed arch-conservative in matters of Church aesthetics and ritual, so I would think that.

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Continue.

The title is an excellent touch.

Although I'm guessing this thread will probably end up being more of an atheist alliance than anything else. Edit: after reading the close of the last thread, I'd love the alliance idea. The goal is to make the world better. Hope it lasts longer than this post

[Kepler]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

The title is an excellent touch.

Although I'm guessing this thread will probably end up being more of an atheist alliance than anything else. Edit: after reading the close of the last thread, I'd love the alliance idea. The goal is to make the world better. Hope it lasts longer than this post

LOL. Works for me.

[burd]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

An alliance is a good idea--at least it has a comfortable feel to it. But at the risk of backsliding, what did we decide: God or no god.

[St. Clown]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

An alliance is a good idea--at least it has a comfortable feel to it. But at the risk of backsliding, what did we decide: God or no god.

God, I hope no.

[WisconsinWildcard]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Continuing from the last thread...why do you feel atheists give less than religious to charities?

I honestly cannot find any convincing numbers for that...especially since most numbers including donating to church as charity and churches are notorious for using the money for other purposes. Additionally, people often donate time, instead of money. I do not have much discretionary income to donate at this time, but 1-2 times a month, I donate my time (note...I average 4 days off a month). Every...and I mean every...friend or family member I have that is an atheist (or part of the "nones") donates their time, money, or both to a cause they feel strongly about.

And I forgot about Bill Gates when listing some charities. He has given ~30 billion and has plans to give much more. He has personally been responsible for the near eradication of several diseases worldwide.

A brief discussion.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...-myth-to-rest/

[5mn_Major]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Continuing from the last thread...why do you feel atheists give less than religious to charities?

I honestly cannot find any convincing numbers for that...especially since most numbers including donating to church as charity and churches are notorious for using the money for other purposes. Additionally, people often donate time, instead of money. I do not have much discretionary income to donate at this time, but 1-2 times a month, I donate my time (note...I average 4 days off a month). Every...and I mean every...friend or family member I have that is an atheist (or part of the "nones") donates their time, money, or both to a cause they feel strongly about.

And I forgot about Bill Gates when listing some charities. He has given ~30 billion and has plans to give much more. He has personally been responsible for the near eradication of several diseases worldwide.

A brief discussion.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...-myth-to-rest/

Yeah. I saw that study too. The original premise was kinda weak and its refuting was kinda weak.

Christian giving seems to be much higher. One detailed study...

Evangelicals were far and away the group most likely to donate money, items or time as a volunteer. Comparatively, 27% of those with a faith other than Christianity say they made no charitable donation in the last year—a number more than double the national rate (13%). One-fifth of people who claimed no faith said they made no donation over the last year, still noticeably higher than the number for all Americans.

And how much?

Christians tend to be the most generous group of donors. Overall, the three segments of the Christian community averaged donations of $1426. In contrast, Americans associated with non-Christian faiths gave away a mean of $905 during 2007. Atheists and agnostics provided an average of $467 to all non-profit organizations. Twice as many atheists and agnostics (40%) donated a relatively small amount (under $100), compared to all donating adults (20%).

https://www.barna.org/component/cont...3#.Vbj_Pr4o6Fk

Here's another highlighted by the Chronicle of Philantrophy that said:

About 75 percent of people who frequently attend religious services gave to congregations, and 60 percent gave to religious charities or nonreligious ones. By comparison, fewer than half of people who said they didn’t attend faith services regularly supported any charity, even a even secular one.

https://philanthropy.com/article/Rel...ve-More/153973

Gallup agrees.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/166250/am...unteerism.aspx

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

what did we decide: God or no god.

If I am not mistaken, the consensus was that, while internal beliefs may be nice for each of us personally, what really matters from a social perspective is external behavior: don't lie, don't steal, treat each other with courtesy and respect....

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Continuing from the last thread...why do you feel atheists give less than religious to charities?

Devout Mormons tithe; Mitt Romney for example actually gave more money to charity than he paid in federal income tax. His inarticulate responses masked that he truly believed in the voluntary redistribution of wealth. I have little doubt that the charitable recipients of his largesse used the money to far better effect than the federal government ever could (few people know the story behind how the Mormon church responded to Katrina faster than FEMA and far more effectively since the Mormons don't call attention to their own good works). Since a tithe is 10% of pretax income, Mormon gifting alone would give the "religious" overall a high level of giving, even if other faiths gave less...and other faiths also believe in tithing as well.

Studies have shown that conservatives tend to give more to charity than lefties; again, voluntary redistribution of wealth is common ("teach others how to fish" includes giving them a fishing pole!); and there seems to be some correlation between conservatism and religious belief: a hand up, not a hand out, generally involves getting people situated in the first place for a chance to succeed.

[LynahFan]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Continuing from the last thread...why do you feel atheists give less than religious to charities?

I honestly cannot find any convincing numbers for that...especially since most numbers including donating to church as charity and churches are notorious for using the money for other purposes. Additionally, people often donate time, instead of money. I do not have much discretionary income to donate at this time, but 1-2 times a month, I donate my time (note...I average 4 days off a month). Every...and I mean every...friend or family member I have that is an atheist (or part of the "nones") donates their time, money, or both to a cause they feel strongly about.

And I forgot about Bill Gates when listing some charities. He has given ~30 billion and has plans to give much more. He has personally been responsible for the near eradication of several diseases worldwide.

A brief discussion.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendl...-myth-to-rest/

It's a really good point about whether donations to churches should "count." My disenchantment with my church in particular (and Christianity in general) began when, as a senior in high school, I was asked to be on the long-range planning committee for my church. Out of a total annual budget of about $2M, less than $50k (2.5%) went to the "missions" budget, where the church actually sent money to field missionaries (in the US and overseas) and spent money on caring for the local community (the firewood ministry and home repair activities that I mentioned before, among other things). That same year, a major donor to the church donated $50k for a new pair of stained glass windows for the sanctuary - only they weren't even windows, they just hung on a wall (which previously had other perfectly lovely decorations on it) and were backlit. But that donation certainly counts as "charitable" giving and nobody even gives it a second thought.

That's another example of how Christianity/religion enjoys special privilege in our country. If an "atheist" charitable organization spent 97.5% of its budget on marble, mahogany, and activities intended only for its own members or to recruit new members, there would be a huge outcry and it's "charitable-ness" ratings would plummet. But churches (even seriously demented ones like Scientology) get a free pass (and free tax breaks) for the same thing...

[FreshFish]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Just curious, are Mormons considered to be "Christians" or not? I've seen it argued both ways; the consensus seems to be more toward not. Sort of how Islam views Jesus as a major prophet, merely not the Son of God.

[ScoobyDoo]

Re: The Religion Thread: A Believer-Atheist Alliance

Just curious, are Mormons considered to be "Christians" or not? I've seen it argued both ways; the consensus seems to be more toward not. Sort of how Islam views Jesus as a major prophet, merely not the Son of God.

No.