Acupuncture

[joecct]

I am beginning to think you have too much time on your hands.

Retired and minding grandson #2 during the day with grandma.

[Old Pio]

Re: Acupuncture

OP-You could not be more correct. Years ago I had a heated discussion with a patient who absolutely insisted that doctors had the cure for cancer but refused to release it so they could continue to make money off of cancer patients. First, i explained to him as best i could, there is no such thing as one cancer-each organ involved, each type of cell, each specific form of cancer is different and even case where all of the above are the same still behave differently. When he still refused to believe I simply asked him, if that was true, why do doctors die at about the same average age as non doctors and from the same gamut of diseases including cancers? And, I added, if money and power got you the best medicine, and there were hidden cures, why Did Sam Walton die of bone cancer and Ted Kennedy from brain cancer? Surely they had access to unlimited funds for unlimited and the best medical minds in the world.
There are some disease entities and some conditions that physicians just do not treat as well as we would wish we could and these are the cases that the non physician, quasi medical, witch doctor charlatans love to focus on. I have absolutely no problem with anyone who can offer a patient relief from symptoms. If they can reduce the pain in your back or the discomfort in your gut, then that is wonderful. But not at the dangerous cost of delaying or missing a diagnosis that a trained physician could have made that might save your life or prevent unrepairable damage. Once an accurate diagnosis is made, and i know that i do not have something serious that necessitates medical intervention-would i go to a chiropractor for some relief of back pain? Absolutely(but i would certainly not allow him to diagnose the condition without first consulting my orthopedic physician). Darn instead o going to that chiropractor i might even just have some cute young Chinese girl walk on my back(as long as Jen never found out about it). I have enough trouble making sure that a board certified physician is trained well enough for my satisfaction so i certainly will not trust my life or my family to an untrained provider.

Dr. Pio used to say if it were true that they were keeping life saving therapies off the market to guard their profits, then we would never have seen penicillin. He estimated about two out of three of us wouldn't be here without it. If, someday, a vaccine against all of the various cancers were created, it would cost tens of thousands of dollars per injection. And every insurance company and medical payer would jump at providing those injections. A fixed cost. Perfect.

Some chiropractors and other quacks expend a great deal of effort to convince their patients to make them their primary care givers. These "one cause, one cure" types make poor PCPs because of their limited training and knowledge. Dr. Pio used to refer to an "index of suspicion," which is underdeveloped or missing entirely with these people. Under the circumstances you just discussed, where you've got a Type M condition, well diagnosed, then a chiropractor with appropriate limits on his scope of practice could provide you with some pain relief.

[Old Pio]

Re: Acupuncture

I never said anything about keeping it off the market, not sure where you get that. I question who is going to put the money forward for the studies to satisfy someone who needs proof it works(or doesn't) according to a dbl blind study.

In most cases the much hated "big pharma" will be paying for the research. Some avenues of inquiry turn out to be dead ends. Others not. And in many cases, a drug created for one purpose winds up having more than one application. We have a Food and Drug Administration which "protects" us and establishes standards for the introduction of new drugs in the market place. Extremely complicated and difficult regulations. Some would argue the FDA can frequently be too protective, by keeping drugs off the market the efficacy of which have been demonstrated.

One of the requirements of scientific inquiry is that experiments and studies can be replicated by others following the same protocols. In the case of chiropractic, the central premise, that so-called "subluxations" are responsible for human suffering has never been proven. Nor, in fact, the existence of "subluxations" in the first place. Yet, in over a century, organizaed chiropractic has been unable to prove even the existence of subluxations, let alone their role, if any, in human illness. And it has shown very little interest in inquiring.

Think about the advances in scientific medicine over the past 100 years. And during that same period chiroprators have stubbornly clung to their core beliefs, practicing today essentially the same way they did a century ago in the Iowa cornfields.

[leswp1]

Re: Acupuncture

Chiming in late and trying to ignore some of the things posted because my reply would be pages long. Yrs ago I worked in a large teaching hospital in Boston. They had some pts on my floor who were part of an acupuncture study. The results were incredible. The medical staff, including the attending, residents and PT were all in agreement that for the thing they were studying the results were amazing. Anecdotally I have seen some improbable results with acupuncture treatment, some of my patients have had great relief from treatment after failing other methods. Many of the patients I see who have had acupuncture do not think they are 'cured'. They do feel better overall and more able to handle the sx they are experiencing.

Of course the studies I have read over the yrs may have been 'greatly flawed' but it is my understanding they have found increase levels of endorphins and cortisol when the person is treated correctly. They have found that correct placement of needles causes the micro-electric currents in the fascia to alter. This last bit of info was imparted at a MEDICAL conference by a medical Dr. who was not pushing acupuncture at all.

I have never told a patient they will be cured. The acupuncturists in our community are very careful to tell patients they can't cure everything and have the list generated by the WHO regarding when acupuncture would be appropriate. They also will tell people they are not a replacement for medical care.

I have a hard time giving blanket dismissal of 'alternative' medicine practices. In every discipline you are going to have charlatans and great practitioners. Anyone that says they are going to cure you, no problem, should be scary what ever their title.

[Old Pio]

Re: Acupuncture

Chiming in late and trying to ignore some of the things posted because my reply would be pages long. Yrs ago I worked in a large teaching hospital in Boston. They had some pts on my floor who were part of an acupuncture study. The results were incredible. The medical staff, including the attending, residents and PT were all in agreement that for the thing they were studying the results were amazing. Anecdotally I have seen some improbable results with acupuncture treatment, some of my patients have had great relief from treatment after failing other methods. Many of the patients I see who have had acupuncture do not think they are 'cured'. They do feel better overall and more able to handle the sx they are experiencing.

Of course the studies I have read over the yrs may have been 'greatly flawed' but it is my understanding they have found increase levels of endorphins and cortisol when the person is treated correctly. They have found that correct placement of needles causes the micro-electric currents in the fascia to alter. This last bit of info was imparted at a MEDICAL conference by a medical Dr. who was not pushing acupuncture at all.

I have never told a patient they will be cured. The acupuncturists in our community are very careful to tell patients they can't cure everything and have the list generated by the WHO regarding when acupuncture would be appropriate. They also will tell people they are not a replacement for medical care.

I have a hard time giving blanket dismissal of 'alternative' medicine practices. In every discipline you are going to have charlatans and great practitioners. Anyone that says they are going to cure you, no problem, should be scary what ever their title.

Whatever works. The power of the mind to alleviate symptoms (at least temporarily) is well known. Every faith healing quack knows and relies on this.

[walrus]

Re: Acupuncture

Whatever works. The power of the mind to alleviate symptoms (at least temporarily) is well known. Every faith healing quack knows and relies on this.

Don't Drs rely on that also?
Probably poorly worded, but a good attitude certainly helps healing

[walrus]

Re: Acupuncture

In most cases the much hated "big pharma" will be paying for the research. .

Whats in it for Big pharma, why would they care about ART?

[Old Pio]

Re: Acupuncture

Whats in it for Big pharma, why would they care about ART?

They don't. They wouldn't. I was describing what happens with scientific medicine. Chiropractic operates under no such constraints. Whatever they dream up and can sell to the credulous and gullible becomes the flavor of the month (like squeezing the skulls of children to "cure" learning disabilities, for instance). Proving that what they're selling is safe and effective is an annoyance. Thus, they never, ever make the effort. Perhaps chiropractors could take some of the money they spend on various get rich quick schemes and do the research themselves. 'Course they've had a century and more to prove the existence of "subluxations" and have so far taken a pass. After all, they are trying to prevent this superior form of medicine from fulfilling its Iowa destiny.

[Old Pio]

Re: Acupuncture

Don't Drs rely on that also?
Probably poorly worded, but a good attitude certainly helps healing

Sure. Under the right circumstances. They also rely on science. Something which sends the average chiropractor running from the room because their nonsense is non scientific and has never been proven to be safe and effective.

[huskyfan]

"By definition, alternative medicine has either not been proved to work, or been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative medicine that’s been proved to work? Medicine."--Tim Minchin

this. however ... a few times when I've been suffering from insomnia, I have scheduled late night acupuncture sessions, went home and slept like a baby. coincidence? I'll take it.

[Old Pio]

Re: Acupuncture

this. however ... a few times when I've been suffering from insomnia, I have scheduled late night acupuncture sessions, went home and slept like a baby. coincidence? I'll take it.

Next time try rattling bones or incantations or cupping.

[huskyfan]

Re: Acupuncture

Next time try rattling bones or incantations or cupping.

no doubt it would be cheaper.

[Old Pio]

Re: Acupuncture

no doubt it would be cheaper.

Plus, aside from emergency rooms, good luck finding a doctor late at night. The one advantage alternative "medicine" types have is they lay on hands and spend more time with patients. Along the lines of Marcus Welby. A lot of that is missing in today's medicine. Doctors want to get 'em in and get 'em out. 'Course they're also offering far better treatments than old Marcus could ever dream of. Lots of doctors should spend some time sharpening up their people skills. In the old days the trusted family physician would make a house call and spend all night holding your hand watching you die. Nowadays he offers an injection in his office and you're up and around in a day or two. Personally, I'd opt for the latter.

[dxmnkd316]

Re: Acupuncture

I would never fork over a dime to a chiropractor or an acupuncturist.

[walrus]

I would never fork over a dime to a chiropractor or an acupuncturist.

Until nothing else works, then you might but if saying that makes you feel good....